Nightmare at Yankee Stadium111

[Yankee 21]

Well, Wonderboy Weaver did what he does best::




Lost another freakin game!!!!!!!

[JrollPrincess]

I'm gonna BEAT UP JEff with his own mitt.

[choateschick38]

lol, I'll join ya Cami.

I say we trade him.

[milky_way]

he seemed to have lost his control mentally after the single-turned-double and especially after the Speizio homer. :ohno: you could see it in his face after he gave up the bomb :ohno:.

but I also stick by what i said earlier in previous Weaver discussions: give him time. he's not used to coming out of the bullpen. he's not used to pitching in this type of pressure. everyone needs time to adjust. This has been Weaver's worst preformance since Tampa Bay. That was a long time ago. It's easy to blame Weaver and only Weaver for today's loss, but it's not right to do that. i'm not pleased with Weaver's performance, but what lost us the game was the lack of clutch hitting. We left something like 11 men on base. This game should NOT have gone to extra innings. We had a runner at second base with no outs in the bottom of the ninth...how the hell do we NOT score??? :hmm:

and I don't understand how everyone here is so harsh with Weaver. he had a bad day today, and heck, so did every other Yankee...yet Weaver is the only one who is being bashed. Jeff's previous appearences out of the pen has saved and WON games for us. He's pitched well in August excluding today's game:

DATE OPP RESULT IP H R ER HR BB SO GB FB PIT BF GSc DEC REL ERA*
Aug. 1 @ANA L 2-1 7.0 6 2 2 1 3 2 10 9 103 30 56 L(7-10) - 3.99
Aug. 4 @ANA W 7-5 2.0 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 3 29 8 - - - 3.94
Aug. 9 OAK L 3-2 6.1 7 2 2 0 0 3 7 9 102 26 - - - 3.90
Aug. 16 @SEA W 9-3 3.0 3 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 45 13 - - Sv(1) 3.83

Weaver had a bad inning. Everyone has bad innings. is he the one who should be blamed for the loss? Partly, but Rondell White deserves more of the blame. Joe Torre even deserves more blame. How is it that no one mentions Rondell GIDPing and stranding a runner at second when Sori's in the on-deck circle??? How is it that no one mentions Torre not pinch-hitting Wilson for Mondi after Jorge's leadoff double so he could bunt Jorge to third, or if you didn't want Enrique to be a defensive liability, why not have Mondi bunt to get Jorge to third with less than two outs??? Jorge ended a rally too by grounding out with the bases loaded :hmm:.

[BPBlueSox]

I love how you Skanks fans rip into Jeff Weaver.

He would be the ace of many staffs around baseball.

You all should remember how spoiled your are with the team you have...Jeff Weaver in the bullpen? Sheesh!

Like the loss really hurt anyways, it's not like y'all aren't gonna win the division or anything...

[Yankee 21]

Originally posted by JrollPrincess
I'm gonna BEAT UP JEff with his own mitt.

Finally!!! Somebody actually see the light!!!! You too, Choateschick!!

BPBLUSOX, If you want him, you can have him. We have 5 starting pitchers who can actually win games 90% of the time. We don't need a sixth starter who can't even come out of the Bullpen when we need him to.

[JrollPrincess]

Your sig rocks Yankee 21, Maris is like my Hero..

I can't stand this Weaver guy... GET HIM OUTTA HERE. Maybe Texas will want him...

[milky_way]

Originally posted by Yankee 21

We have 5 starting pitchers who can actually win games 90% of the time. We don't need a sixth starter who can't even come out of the Bullpen when we need him to.
Jeff has done a great job out of the bullpen. he was the one who saved Duque's ass after he gets injured after one inning. he was the one who saved Boomer after he can't go more than five innings. he's a starter who was forced to the bullpen and he's done a fine job there. ONE bad appearance in the entire month and it's back to "Nightmare Weaver can't win a game...Nightmare Weaver is the worst player in the world...Trade Nightmare Weaver because Nightmare Weaver sucks and doesn't deserve to be in pinstripes" :hmm:

and we DO need him. it doesn't matter how much he sucks this year, he is VERY important to the team's future. if we didn't make this trade, what would be our rotation next season and in the years to come? Moose, Pettitte, Lilly, Hitchcock ( :barf: ), and the rest are all question marks. Rocket won't be here much longer, Boomer's back isn't looking too good, and god knows how old Duque is. Weaver has great stuff and he's only 25. he's younger then Lilly and he's not injury-prone the way Lilly is. Jeff is VERY important to the team's future. He may be a spot starter/long man in the bullpen now, but we didn't trade for him for the present, we traded for him for the FUTURE.

i think BPBlueSox hit it right on the nail. This team spoils us too much. We have what would be an Ace on many teams, and a 25-year-old Ace at that, as the longman in our bullpen!!! AND WE'RE STILL COMPLAINING!!!!

[JrollPrincess]

Originally posted by milky_way

Pettitte and the rest are all question marks.


Andy is a question mark?

[milky_way]

Originally posted by JrollPrincess



Andy is a question mark?
oh no no no...i meant Rocket, Boomer and El Duque are question marks. Andy, Moose, and (now) Weaver aren't question marks because they're not as old and injury-prone as the other three. Rocket, Boomer, and Duque may all be gone by next season, and will certainly be gone by 2003-2004.

Andy's gonna be here for a while :cool: :biggrin:

[JrollPrincess]

I was just checking...

Andy has gotta stay, he has 8 years already in service to NYY. :love: :lust: :lovekiss:

[milky_way]

i hope Andy stays a Yankee for his entire career. i doubt we would ever let him go the way he pitches in the playoffs (plus he's our Ace right now :biggrin: :king: )

[milky_way]

By Mark Feinsand / MLB.com
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/nyy/news/nyy_news.jsp?ymd=20020821&content_id=109240&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp

NEW YORK -- Jeff Weaver is still trying to figure out what this bullpen thing is all about. After notching his first career save last week, it appeared that the 25-year-old was becoming more comfortable with his relief role, but Wednesday, he imploded in the 11th inning of New York's 5-1 loss to Anaheim.

"I'm trying to deal with the circumstances I'm given," Weaver said. "I've been a starter my whole career. This is a whole new experience on how to handle the situation. Today it didn't go right."

Weaver was impressive in the 10th, retiring the side without allowing a hit. Alex Ochoa reached base in the inning on Derek Jeter's throwing error, but after intentionally walking Garret Anderson, Weaver got Troy Glaus to fly out to end the inning.

But in the 11th, Weaver allowed a Brad Fullmer double to lead off the inning. Scott Spiezio tried to bunt him to third, but fouled off his first attempt. Two pitches later, Spiezio launched a home run into the right-field seats, giving the Angels a 3-1 lead.

"He made a pretty good pitch to Fullmer, and he hit it the opposite way," said manager Joe Torre. "It looked like he wanted to do something with Spiezio, but he didn't get the ball where he wanted to get it and he threw it over the middle of the plate. He wanted to throw it out of the strike zone, and it just didn't get there. Right pitch, bad location."

After the home run, Weaver allowed three more singles in the inning, giving the Angels two more insurance runs to work with. Troy Percival came in for the 11th, and though the Yankees loaded the bases with no outs, they were unable to score and the game ended.

"I threw the same thing as I did the inning before," Weaver said. "The whole 11th approach changed after the blooper fell in. A lot of things could have been done differently, but that that's the way it was and unfortunately we lost."

Weaver hasn't had much success at Yankee Stadium since putting on pinstripes. In 22 1/3 innings, he has allowed 20 earned runs, going 1-1 with an 8.06 ERA in the Bronx.

"I'm not going to let what happened in that inning affect the way I think of him or the trust I have in him," Torre said. "His stuff is too good and he's going to be very important to us as a starter in the future. He's taken on a role he's not familiar with, and he's done a good job for us."

[Yankee 21]

Originally posted by JrollPrincess
Your sig rocks Yankee 21, Maris is like my Hero..

I can't stand this Weaver guy... GET HIM OUTTA HERE. Maybe Texas will want him...

Why thank you:biggrin: He's always been my Hero too!! and I totally agree with you!

[choateschick38]

We really should try to trade him... apparently a lot of other teams want him; imagine who we could get in return for him and maybe a couple minor leaguers.

I know we got him for the future and all, but I just don't see him filling Clemens's vacated spot.

[Yankee 21]

Originally posted by choateschick38
We really should try to trade him... apparently a lot of other teams want him; imagine who we could get in return for him and maybe a couple minor leaguers.

I know we got him for the future and all, but I just don't see him filling Clemens's vacated spot.

Exactly!!! Not Clemens, nor Moose nor Andy's, Boomers, nor El Duque's. You Know Andy & El Duque came up through the farm system and I'm quite sure they have their eyes on some young guns in our minor league system that their watching and expecting to fill the need for a starter when the time comes. It's time to realize that they didn't get what they thought they did and now it's time try to fix the problem by getting us somebody we need, like maybe another closer, just in case Mo doesn't get over these problems he's been having all year. Not that I'm saying to get rid of Mo. God NO! But how about building up the bullpen so there's not this great hysteria anytime Mo goes on the DL.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by Yankee 21

It's time to realize that they didn't get what they thought they did and now it's time try to fix the problem by getting us somebody we need, like maybe another closer
waaait. we didn't get what we thought we did??? HOW CAN YOU JUDGE THIS TRADE SO EARLY????? it's been less than TWO MONTHS since we made the trade!!! Weaver's been here for less than TWO MONTHS and you're already saying he's a bust!!! AND HE'S 25!!!!!! it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to determine if we got screwed in this trade or not. heck, as of right now we came out at the better end of the deal: Ted Lilly has been on the DL for a couple weeks already. but who knows what Arnold and Griffin will turn out to be? who knows if Lilly's arm-motion will ever make him a very successfull major league pitcher? two months is hardly enough time to judge any trade, much less a trade of young talent for more young talent.

and also, we needed to get another starter, whether it be now or later, free-agency or trade, our rotation is aging and it's aging fast. For all we know, Clemens, Wells and El Duque may ALL be gone next season. What would our rotation be prior to the trade? Pettitte, Moose, Lilly (who already has arm problems) and Hitchcock. By adding Weaver, we got a potential Ace and someone who will be the staple of the rotation for years to come. We needed to get another starter, and we addressed that need by getting Weaver. Getting another closer...well...we do have Karsay who can close should Mo have a lot of difficulties, but our bullpen could definitely use some help. Karsay, Stanton, Doza, and Mo are all used too much :ohno:. i dunno about getting a closer to take Mo's spot, cause even with the problems he's been having Mo is still one of the best there is.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by choateschick38
We really should try to trade him... apparently a lot of other teams want him; imagine who we could get in return for him and maybe a couple minor leaguers.

I know we got him for the future and all, but I just don't see him filling Clemens's vacated spot.
there's a reason a lot of other teams want him. he's got great stuff and a hell of a lot of potential. don't give up on him so soon. he may turn out to be a great player.

I doubt Weaver will fill Clemen's spot as the ACE of the team this soon. that will be Moose's role once Rocket is gone. But i can definitely see Weaver being a reliable and productive #2-#3 starter in the future. And when Moose is gone, who knows? He could be our Ace :cool:

[Yankee 21]

When in God's name are you going to get with the program???:confused: He's been here two months and he's had what maybe one decent game???:confused: Any other team would be looking to get rid of him too. Ever wonder why the Tigers got rid of him??? Maybe they knew something we don't!!!!!

For Gods sake, why do you have such a hard on for this guy??? Are you related to him or something???
Come back and talk about but it when your done with your little crush on him, OK! or when he actually contributes some thing good to the game.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by Yankee 21
When in God's name are you going to get with the program???:confused: He's been here two months and he's had what maybe one decent game???:confused: Any other team would be looking to get rid of him too. Ever wonder why the Tigers got rid of him??? Maybe they knew something we don't!!!!!

For Gods sake, why do you have such a hard on for this guy??? Are you related to him or something???
Come back and talk about but it when your done with your little crush on him, OK! or when he actually contributes some thing good to the game.
oh my god :hmm:. i can't believe this :hmm:

Get with the program????? i'm sorry, but it looks like i'm the only one with the program!!!!!!!! i KNOW WEAVER IS JUST 25!!! I KNOW HE'S GOT ONE OF THE BRIGHTEST FUTURES FOR A YOUNG PITCHER!!! I KNOW THAT A COUPLE GAMES WITH A NEW TEAM IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUDGE HIM!!! :angry:

One decent game? He's had about 4 decent games if you've checked the stats. Every game that he appeared in in August excluding the most recent Aneheim game.

and if he started this way with any other team there is NO WAY in hell they would be looking to get rid of him. this kid has great stuff and a huge upside...they would know that they have to be patient with him and let him adjust and find his groove. Why did the Tigers get rid of him? i have no idea! it seemed like a dumb move for them being that they could have built around Weaver, but they got a great young player in return in Pena.

Why do i like Weaver so much? No i'm not related to him...GOD no i don't have a crush on him...i like him because we traded one of my favorite players for him and i don't want to have to look back at the trade and think that we traded Ted for nothing :angry:. i ALSO like him because i see that Weaver's gonna be a Yankee for a loooooooong time, and i'm NOT gonna be one of those people who criticize him like mad when he's struggling and just jump on the bandwagon when he starts pitching well.

"Come back and talk about but it when your done with your little crush on him, OK! or when he actually contributes some thing good to the game."

That's one of the worst insults i've gotten here. i can't believe you can't see this from MY point of view. just because i believe Weaver is gonna be a good player, you accuse me of having a crush on him???? i come on messegeboards because i don't want people to judge my opinions based on sex or age, and you did BOTH right there :angry:. Just because i'm a teenage girl and i root for a struggling player to do well does NOT mean i root for him because i have a crush on him :angry:.

god, since you think that my opinions on this guy are so distorted that you accuse me for having a crush on him, i just won't post in any Weaver thread anymore :angry:. Everyone knows that i think this kid is gonna be a good player and is just going through a rough period, and everyone knows that you all think that he's a bust and that we should trade him. it won't do anything to have two totally opposite opinions clashing at every Weaver thread :hmm:. i only ask that if/when Weave starts pitching well, that you NOT jump on the bandwagon after all the hate you've given me for rooting for him from the beginning :angry:

[Yankee 21]

#1 - I have never nor will I ever Jump on a bandwagon, especially IF Weaver EVER gets hi stuff together.

#2 - I believe we have established, finally, that we do not agree on this subject, so why don't we just let it die and have our own opinions and not have a heated debate every time his name comes up.

#3 - I do apologize for accusing you of having a crush on him. That was wrong of me to do. I hope you accept my apology, becuase I do mean it and I do believe that you are a good member of this site and I really do not want to bash heads with you every time this subject comes up.

#4 - Lets just agree to disagree on this subject and move on.
Thank you

[milky_way]

Originally posted by Yankee 21

#4 - Lets just agree to disagree on this subject and move on.
Thank you
Agreed.

[Yankee 21]

Good!!!:)

[Cyberlibrarian]

Considering how well Andy's doing today, I'd say he definitely should join the ranks of question marks.

Clemens is old and fragile.

Wells is old and fat and fragile.

El Duque is old and fragile (both physically and emotionally).

Mussina is unable to find the plate.

Pettitte runs hot and cold and was on the DL for 2 months.

Rivera is on the DL for the third time this year, and has shown he's mortal when he's not on the DL.

The Yankees are doing well because they have a great offense and because the pitching has been doing just enough to get by. In the playoffs, however, they'll be facing some of the best pitching in the game and, as we all know, good pitching beats good hitting.

I'm not saying they won't win in the post-season, but I am saying that it won't be easy.

[awefullspellare]

speak of bad bullpen ALFONSUCKA SUCKS SO BAD!

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
Considering how well Andy's doing today, I'd say he definitely should join the ranks of question marks.
well, when i used the term "question marks," i meant question marks as in health for the future. Andy isn't gonna retire after this season, and probably won't for a while. Clemens, Boomer, and El Duque may ALL leave very soon, and we can't be sure that they'll be in the rotation next season, and thus are labeled "question marks."
Originally posted by LeiterFan
Mussina is unable to find the plate.
No he's been finding the plate...he's just been finding the very middle of it and he's been watching the ball fly right over his head and into the seats :(
Originally posted by LeiterFan
Pettitte runs hot and cold and was on the DL for 2 months.
Actually, Andy has been our post-All Star Break Ace. He's really been the only consistent starter. In his last two starts (counting today's) he's pitched bad (allowing 5 runs in both starts), but he's still been very consistent and effective in the past two months :).
Originally posted by LeiterFan
Rivera is on the DL for the third time this year, and has shown he's mortal when he's not on the DL.
Yup...Mo is a definite concern :(. Hopefully he can get 100% healthy by October. We won't win if Mo's injured :(.
Originally posted by LeiterFan
I'm not saying they won't win in the post-season, but I am saying that it won't be easy.
oh there's no question it won't be easy. i'm scared to death of possibly having to face Oakland or Aneheim in a five-game series :nope:. the best matchup for the Yanks would be the Twins (we're undefeated against them this year), but as of right now, we'd be playing either the Mariners or the Angels :uhoh:. i'm hoping our pitchers can turn it up a notch in the postseason. Andy, Boomer, El Duque, and Rocket are all BIG game pitchers. Moose is too, but i have doubts whether he'll be in the post season rotation :ohno:. i just hope our bats don't fall asleep like they did in the World Series last year... :(

[Cyberlibrarian]

That's the point. Good pitching beats good hitting. So, yes, it is possible for the bats to fall asleep in the post-season.

When I said that Andy is a question mark, I meant that no one can know if his arm is going to start bugging him again.

As for my saying that Moose can't find the plate, I was exaggerating. I know very well that he's finding the plate alright -- he's serving up meatballs right over the center.

And a big game pitcher is still taken down a notch if he's an old, injured pitcher. And, if you look at Clemens' career, you'll see that he hasn't been a big-game pitcher for the most part. His lack of performance in the post-season been very well documented, and goes all the way back to 1986. Until he threw that bat at Mike Piazza in the 2000 WS, he'd done squat in the post-season for his career.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
And a big game pitcher is still taken down a notch if he's an old, injured pitcher. And, if you look at Clemens' career, you'll see that he hasn't been a big-game pitcher for the most part. His lack of performance in the post-season been very well documented, and goes all the way back to 1986. Until he threw that bat at Mike Piazza in the 2000 WS, he'd done squat in the post-season for his career.
well he pitched great in big games last year (namely the must-win Game 3 of the World Series and the deciding Game 5 of the ALDS and Game 7 of the World Series), and he's still the guy i'd want on the mound in a Game 7 with the season on the line.

[Cyberlibrarian]

As I said, Roger's "big-game-ness" is very recent.

You're probably too young to remember him in the late 80s when he personified chicken-$hit-ness.

[milky_way]

yes i am too young. was born in the late 80s :)

all that matters in my mind is that Clemens has pitched in some big games for us over the past two years and he's pitched very well. his health seems to be the only concern :( (and unfortunately it's a major concern...)

[Cyberlibrarian]

Well, I was born in the 1950s, and I know more about Roger Clemens than you want to hear.

In 1986, he took himself out of what could have been the deciding game of the WS (the famous Game 6) because he says he had a blister. No one on that team saw the blister; they just remember that he took himself out when his team was ahead. A couple of years later (in another playoff series), he stood arguing with an umpire and got himself thrown out of a game.

Clemens is well-known for taking himself out of games and claiming injury when he's on the losing end. He makes excuses for everything. Shea Stadium is his personal House of Horrors (starting with the WS in 1986), and he avoided pitching there last year because he was too chicken to get what he deserved. This year, he pitched like garbage when he finally had to pitch at Shea. He was taken out of the game when he'd been hammered to the tune of 8-0 and had the ignominy of giving up a home run to the opposing pitcher. And, oh yes, he claimed to have an injury, and even limped off the field for effect. But, he appeared 100% improved by his next game. Give me a break.

In other words, it's all about Roger. It always has been, and it always will be.

[Yankee 21]

You are very right, Julie, on every point you have made! Clemens does have a history of getting "injured" when he's getting his butt handed to him. Problem is, us fans never know if he's really injured or not when he comes out of a game.

[Cyberlibrarian]

That's the point. It's always about Roger. It's hard to be more self-absorbed than he is.

A very close friend of mine is a long-time Yankee fan, and she still can't bring herself to root for him. She hates him about as much as I do.

So what does she do? She hopes that the Yankees win but that he only gets no-decisions.

[Yankee 21]

I know exactly what you mean!!!

[JrollPrincess]

Originally posted by milky_way

Actually, Andy has been our post-All Star Break Ace. He's really been the only consistent starter. In his last two starts (counting today's) he's pitched bad (allowing 5 runs in both starts), but he's still been very consistent and effective in the past two months :).




110% AGREED!!! :lust: Andy :lust: :lust: