Pete Rose and Hall of Fame

[fvilla18]

I think he should. one mistake shouldnt cost him such a deserved honor.

[Baseball Guru]

Hey fvilla18, just FYI, I moved this thread to the Around the Horn forum as we try to not talk too much about sports in this particular forum.....The Around the Horn forum is used more for general baseball talk...

And again, welcome:D

[Baseball Guru]

BTW, I voted yes, but he was wrong.....

Obviously everyone pretty much thinks he was wrong...It ia all a mattr of what some are willing to forget or how someone thinks one should be in the HOF...
I personally dont have a problem wiht him in the Hall but I think he should still be banned from baseball as far as not being allowed to work for a MLB team again......

Basically to sum it up, I think a banned player should be allowed to be in the Hall if their #'s merrit it but not allowed to hold a job in a MLB organization....

I mean, we are only really talking 2 players that would qualify that were banned..
Rose and Shoeless.....

Again, JMO :D

[Rockin Robin]

He's virtually in the Hall already, as leader in umpteen different categories. Just make it official already by sticking a bust of him there!

[rockin500]

yah. i said he shoud state he was wrong, but even if doesnt, so be it. stick him in. besides, in the court of public opinion hes already in, so make it official

[Big Dawg]

If they make 'confessing' a condition, then all they're saying is that he wasn't banned for betting, he was banned for lying about it.

should we apply that same theory to the Real World? Admit you murdered someone and you're forgiven?

I think Rose should be in the HoF for his actions as a player, but I also think he should never be reinstated into baseball. If he admits he did it that just makes me more resolved that he shouldn't be reinstated.

[PopTop]

Originally posted by Big Dawg
should we apply that same theory to the Real World? Admit you murdered someone and you're forgiven?

I believe we already apply this "theory" in the real world ... People are forgiven, and paroled I might add, for committing murder on a fairly regular basis ... However, once they're rehabilitated and released, they lead lives that are very restricted with regards to what rights convicted felons lose.

Could be just the same in this case, though I must say up front I don't really give a rat's butt what the Hypocrisy of Fools does or doesn't do ... Rose could be "paroled" and inducted into Cooperstown's shrine, but not given full rights to return to baseball in other ways (coaching, broadcasting, etc.) ... I like the idea of a plaque just like all the rest of the game's great players, and a line added at the bottom "Banned from MLB for Gambling" ... In many ways, that would be a bigger punishment than keeping him out and allowing public opinion to swell under some misguided idea that he's being mistreated by baseball.

[jdog402001]

How can anyone not think without a doubt he should be in the Hall? I will never understand that... He has done nothing that players today,yesterday and tomorrow will do... HE GOT CAUGHT!
He is one of the most exciting players I have ever seen without a doubt... I remember him saying early in his Career that he would be the 1st Million Dollar Singles hitter and People laughed.... Will guess what!! It happened!. The only question I have had is .Did he bet on his own team.... If he did that and bet on them to Win....Well,,,I play to win every day and would bet on my team also...
If he bet against his team then that is the Only way he should not get back in the Game... And knowing the Competitive nature of Mr Baseball!!! I doubt he did that...If you knew what you were getting into ,you would never get into anything "Mickey Mantle"

[PopTop]

J-Dog: If you have not done so already, I would strongly urge you and anyone else who hasn't to read The Dowd Report ... http://www.dowdreport.com/ ... Baseball's rules do not distinguish between betting on your own team or betting against your own team ... The rules only make a distinction between whether or not the player, manager, employee, etc., "has a duty to perform" in the game:

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connections with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connections with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

In addition, Rose signed the agreement that started with the following paragraph:

On March 6, 1989, the Commissioner of Baseball instituted an investigation of Peter Edward Rose, the field manager of the Cincinnati Reds Baseball Club, concerning allegations that Peter Edward Rose engaged in conduct not in the best interests of baseball in violation of Major League Rule 21, including but not limited to betting on Major League Baseball games in which he had a duty to perform.

Rose clearly violated a rule that he knew had dire consequences, and signed an agreement to the lifetime ban that basically professed his guilt ... It would shock the living heck outta' me to find out that Rose bet against his own team, being the ultra competitive person he is, was and, I'm guessing, will always be.

I agree with you that Rose was one of the game's greats and an exciting player who should be in the Hall of Fame for his playing credentials ... But where I disagree with you is in trying to separate those who bet on themselves and those who bet against themselves ... I think that most, maybe all of us, will always look down on people who bet against their own team or performance, a la the 1919 White Stockings, more than we will people who bet on their own team or performance.

But which way you bet is not the inherent danger to the game of baseball ... The real problem comes when a Pete Rose owes more money than he can pay to the house ... That's when somebody lets him off the hook if he does indeed throw a game ... And you can't tell me that having a grand, five grand, more?, riding on tonight's game did not affect the way Pete Rose managed the Reds.

And I'm dead set against anyone whose defense is just that Rose was unlucky and got caught ... Defending yourself, or anyone else, simply by implicating others is no defense at all.

[Big Dawg]

If he bets on his own team 5 times a week and doesn't bet on them the other 2, isn't that signal to the gamblers that he doesn't believe his team will win that day? Could he hold off using a closer on a day he didn't bet on his team, wanting to save him for a game when he does?

it's not as if the rules aren't clearly spelled out as reprinted above. You bet on baseball, you're out of baseball. End of story.

And Pop, I'd like to see some evidence that Rose is in fact "rehabilitated'...I'm sure you don't believe he's still not gambling on sports?

And for what it's worth I'm not a big supporter of paroling criminals either...but let's not get sidetracked.

As far as putting something on his plaque, Paul Hornung is in Canton...there's no mention of his suspension for consorting with gamblers. Nor is there anything on OJ's bust about having been found legally culpable in those 2 murders. Ty Cobb's plauqe doesn't say he was suspended for climbing into the stands and beating a fan. Rose's plaque should not be treated any differently.

[WestsideHimself]

IMO I dont think what he did wwas that bad..for sure he is in

[awefullspellare]

who is Pete Rose??? :umm

















:jk:
BTW-I voted yes definetly!!!!

[PopTop]

Originally posted by Big Dawg
And Pop, I'd like to see some evidence that Rose is in fact "rehabilitated'...I'm sure you don't believe he's still not gambling on sports? And for what it's worth I'm not a big supporter of paroling criminals either...but let's not get sidetracked....Rose's plaque should not be treated any differently.

One post earlier you were in agreement to having him in the HOF, but now you want rehab evidence? ... Not sure what you're leading to on that one ... As for whether or not he's still gambling on sports, I can't do anything but profess I have no evidence one way or the other ... Whether or not he is or isn't still placing wagers is of no import to me ... As far as I'm concerned, his efforts and results on the diamond make him one of the greatest players; his actions off the field make him a not so great (understatement) human being.

As for the plaque issue, guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one ... If he, Shoeless Joe Jackson, et al, go into the HOF, I think some mention of them not being fully reinstated to baseball should be made ... As for OJ, his plaque was hung before he was acquitted in the criminal trial on the two murders.

[Big Dawg]

Yeah I agree he should be in the HoF and always should have...the gambling thing is a non-issue to me on that count.

But as far as his reinstatement into the game, that I am opposed to. And if he admits he bet on baseball that just makes me more resolved that he shouldn't be allowed back in. You brough up "rehabilitation" as if to say if he's "rehabilitaded" we should forgive his past sins...so I want to know what makes you think he actually is "rehabilitated".

[jdog402001]

My concern over this is that they are treating him like the "BlackSox Scandal"... There is no evidence he ever threw a game and there won't be. He happened to get a Comissioner who hated his guts is all.. That was evedent from day 1. I can count 10 guys right now who are in the hall and had Gambling connections. Hell Mickey Mantle worked in a Casino...They never investigated him... Whether he is right or wrong is not what I am judging, I am saying that he deserves in the HOF and if he gets re-instated that would be a plus for the kids of today who would benefit a great amount from his knowledge and love of the game
Does anyone think Babe Ruth never gambled...Mickey Mantle,,,Paul Horning? Of course not...why did they not get banned? Because in the 40's and 50's Baseball was all any kid had... Someone would have shot a comissioner who banned Dimaggio,Mantle,Ruth....

[PopTop]

Originally posted by jdog402001
Mickey Mantle worked in a Casino...They never investigated him.

Wrong! ... Mantle was investigated and punished ... Not sure it took a lot of investigation since their offseason jobs were out in the open ... Also, this was after their careers were over, so in that respect it wasn't even comparable to what Rose did and, once again, admitted to when he signed the agreement.

I can't remember all of the details, but this all came down in 1982 or 1983, and Mantle's ban from baseball lasted a couple of years before he was reinstated ... Now I do not recall that any evidence of Mantle actually gambling on baseball was ever put to the public ... His punishment was for simply working at a casino, not for gambling.

[WestsideHimself]

I still think there was nothing wrong for gambling....I think they should be aloud to. It is kinda dumb to say not kinda against free will...I know if I were to play I would gamble all the time.....I know when my team was going to win or lose...you usually know it before hand....I been on several teams for sports and you just get the feeling...i bet half the players bet and gamble within there own sport.

[Big Dawg]

Originally posted by jdog402001
My concern over this is that they are treating him like the "BlackSox Scandal"... There is no evidence he ever threw a game and there won't be. He happened to get a Comissioner who hated his guts is all.. Hell Mickey Mantle worked in a Casino...They never investigated him...
Does anyone think Babe Ruth never gambled...Mickey Mantle,,,Paul Horning? Of course not...why did they not get banned?

A couple of historical notes...Paul Hornung was indeed suspended from football for a year for 'consorting with known gamblers'...and when Mantle and Willie Mays were hired by Atlantic City casinos as "greeters" after they retired, they were indeed prohibited from taking part in any Major League Baseball official functions for several years.

And the issue isn't whether they gambled, but rather whether they gambled on baseball. And no, I am not inclined to believe Ruth, mantle, Dimaggio et al did that.

This goes far beyond a "commissioner who hated Rose's guts." Every MLB clubhouse has a sign that says if you bet on baseball, it is a lifetime ban. Rose knew the rules.

[rockin500]

by the way, here's an interesting tidbit i saw today....

willing to admit he bet on the game? (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0122/1496837.html)

[PopTop]

Interesting, R500 ... But the idea of Rose admitting is a moot point with me; he may not have said it out loud with a mic in front of his face, but he all but admitted to it when he signed the agreement ... That he will come out and say it out loud, and apologize, is a good thing, though I think the "probationary" period should be a little longer, maybe even start his 5-year waiting clock when he does this ... As far as I'm concerned, he's been anything but contrite the last 13-14 years.

Then again, my opinions mean squat-all in this whole affair, and it will be interesting to see how Selig's meeting with HOF players goes ... I'd like to see Selig get the opinions of all Hall of Famers, not just those he feels like inviting to the meeting ... I'd really like to hear the arguments and points raised by Feller, Musial, Berra and the whole lot.

Does anyone remember reading/hearing what Teddy Ballgame may have said on this subject?