All-time pitchers

[Trots]

In light of Roger Clemens sixth Cy Young Award and Randy Johnson's fourth, I am wondering how many of you would place either in your all-time pitching rotation? While I am still debating the question myself, I know for sure my All-Time starting pitchers would begin with Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson. After that, I'm going to have to think about it.

Koufax, Gibson, Grove all immediately come to mind. While, Pedro is the best I've seen and Maddux isn't far behind Martinez. Even in a five man rotation, I'm not sure either Rocket or Big Unit would make my all-time starting rotation. Of course, I'm probably just crazy.

[Baseball Guru]

Good subject:biggrin:
Definitely agree with Walter and Christy....
I would also put a definite with Grover Alexander and probably with Koufax as during his prime he was just simply awesome........
As far as the other 1 I could go with old timers Ed Walsh or Mordecai "3-Finger" Brown......

Clemens all he does is win and I agree with Pedro being the best pitcher I have ever seen since I have been following baseball which is over the last 22 years or so.....
Maddux, while not an overpowering dominator is so dominating in other ways and even though I hate the Braves I do appreciate watching him pitch....

This is a subject which will always be up for debate as the only 3 that i am personally sure about would be Grover, Christy and Walter....

[Paul]

If you're talking about pure dominance, not requiring a long career, I'd have to take Pedro Martinez as my ace. This is a guy who's 3rd all-time in WHIP, with nobody outside of the dead ball era within a mile of him. He has a 2.66 ERA compared to the league being at 4.49 -- and that's despite taking 4 years to really hit his stride. The only thing missing is a longer career.

I'd have to fit Ed Walsh and Walter Johnson into the rotation. Probably Grove also. Maybe Mathewson as the 5th starter.

Clemens would probably be in the top 20 or so, along with Maddux, but wouldn't make a 5 man rotation. Randy Johnson would be a little further down.

[Baseball Guru]

Pedro's .691 winning % is the best alltime with pitchers with at least 1500 innings pitched....
Not to shabby to have pitcher like that is this era of great hitters....

[jimmy15stl]

i would give carlton some consideration as well, he was a helluva pitcher in his prime, but i would take koufax in his prime as my ace. in my opinion he was more dominant pitcher ever (in his prime of course).

[imgreat95]

mathewson as a FIFTH starter?

oh be still my aching heart...haha


I think i would have to agree with a lot of what james said. I think a lot of people forget about mordecai...

Clemens is a helluva pitcher.. if he were pitching in the days of 3 man rotations, how many wins would he have? I have often wondered that.

roblem with naming an all time rotation is that it is so difficult to compare players across eras...

[Trots]

jimmy, I couldn't agree with you more about Koufax in his prime. He set standards in five years it took Ryan twenty years to achieve. If I remember correctly, he retired after winning the Cy Young Award. Like Ted Williams, you have to wonder how much more he could have accomplished?

Obviously, like Paul, I really like Lefty Grove, too. He had some pretty spectacular seasons in an offensive era, much like Martinez today. Going 28-5 in 1930 is impressive. I must admit that my knowledge of Walsh is limited. I just haven't done that much reading/research about his career.

Like James, I still have only have a couple of locks. Mine remain Mathewson and Johnson (Big Train, not Big Unit). If pressed for an answer to my own question, Koufax (in his prime) and Grove would probably be my next two. I still haven't picked a number five starter.

I will say that if I had to win only one game, I would take Pedro before any other pitcher I have ever seen. He still has to dominate for a few more years before I elevate him to my all-time rotation, though.

[Baseball Guru]

A little bio on Ed Walsh:

Ed Walsh used a dominating spitball to average 24 victories a season over a seven-year span (1906-12) for the Chicago White Sox. The right-hander, who twice hurled over 400 frames in a season, is best remembered for his 1908 campaign, when he finished with a 40-15 record, 42 complete games in 49 starts, 464 innings pitched, 11 shutouts, six saves, 269 strikeouts and a 1.42 ERA. "Big Ed" finished his career with a 195-126 record, and his 1.82 lifetime ERA is the best all time.

[Baseball Guru]

Here is some info on Alexander who I really haven't seen mentioned except by myself...
This guy was a great, great pitcher...
A master of the curveball, "Old Pete" started his professional career in 1909 and arrived in the major leagues with the NL's Philadelphia Phillies in 1911, when he led the league with 31 complete games, 367 innings, 7 shutouts, and 28 victories against 13 losses.

After going 19-7 in 1912 and 22-8 in 1913, when he had a league-leading 9 shutouts, Alexander led the NL in victories four years in a row, with 27 in 1914, 31 in 1915, 33 in 1916, and 30 in 1917. He also led in complete games all four years, in shutouts with 12 in 1915, 16 in 1916, and 8 in 1917, and in ERA with 1.22 in 1915 and 1.55 in 1917.

Traded to the Cubs, Alexander spent most of the 1918 season in the Army. He lost the hearing in one ear because of shelling and he also developed epilepsy. When he returned after World War I, he began drinking heavily.

However, he led the league in ERA the next two years with 1.72 in 1919, when he was 16-11, and 1.91 in 1920, when he also led in victories with 27 against 14 losses.

Alexander's skills suddenly declined in 1921, probably because of his alcoholism, although he remained an above-average pitcher. He did have a 22-12 record for Chicago in 1923, but after the 1925 season he entered a sanatorium and in 1926 he was suspended by the Cubs and then waived to St. Louis.

The Cardinals won the pennant that season and Alexander became a World Series hero. He beat the New York Yankees 6-2 in the second game and 10-2 in the sixth. Dozing in the bullpen during the seventh inning of the final game, Alexander was awakened and told to warm up. He entered the game with St. Louis leading 3-2, the bases loaded, and two outs. He struck out the dangerous Tony Lazzeri on four pitches and pitched two more scoreless innings to get a save.

Alexander had one more fine year, going 21-10 in 1927, but he won just 25 games while losing 17 over the next two seasons and was 0-3 with the Phillies in 1930 before being released.

He spent four years with the barnstorming House of David team and for a time appeared in a Times Square side show. Epilepsy and alcohol continued to trouble him and he lost an ear to cancer shortly before his death.

Alexander won 373 games, tying him with Christy Mathewson for the NL career record, and lost 208. He holds league records for most complete games with 437 and shutouts with 90. He struck 2,198 hitters while walking only 951 in 5,189 innings.

[Baseball Guru]

Bring this back top for all the new members to see....