There may be a God after all

[Yankee 21]

The news just reported that The Yankees are talking with Pittsburgh to trade Nightmare boy for Brian Giles!!!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET THIS TRADE HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this was just my local news...Good thing Rich Funky (yep his real name) my local sports reporter is a Yankees fan!!!!!

[GiveHyzduashot]

Not to rain on your parade, but ... the Pirates aren't going to trade Brian Giles for Jeff Weaver. Dave Littlefield is just not that foolish. Giles would be the Yankees best outfielder in many, many, many years ... going back to Reggie Jackson. Check the stats if you'd like .. yes, Giles is better than Winfield was when Winfield was with the Yankees.

Just don't see the Pirates/Yankees matching up well unless the Yankees are going to ante up Rivera, Johnson, Claussen, and pick up Weaver's ridiculous price tag. Even then, DL may not touch the trade ... he turned down Trot Nixon and one of Oakland's best prospects, Esteban German (a 2B) for Giles, and he reportedly offered Giles for Chavez and one of the A's big three. DL has said numerous times he would have to be overwhelmed to trade Giles, and the Yankees don't have what it takes to overwhelm DL while still keeping the Yankees satisified with what they're giving up.

[Yankee 21]

Just reporting what I heard!!! Even ESPN has talked about it. I personally don't care who we get for him as long as we get rid of him NOW!

[GiveHyzduashot]

Yeah, you know how this rumor got started??

Some ESPN "Insider" writer said that the Yankees are interested in Giles, and the Yankees want to unload Weaver's salary. Well gee, no kidding. :hmm:

That's like me saying the Pirates are interested in Alfonso Soriano, and the Pirates want to unload Jason Kendall's salary ... using the same logic that some ESPN Insider used, all we need now is some Pittsburgh-based writer to write that someone "close to talks" is reporting the Pirates and Yankees are talking about a Kendall for Soriano deal ... and just like that, we have the same sort of situation that we do with Giles and Weaver.

[jenny]

i don't want soriono to go anywhere. i just want weaver out.

[milky_way]

If we could get Brian Giles I would trade Weaver in a second...:drool:

BUT as GiveHyzduashot pointed out, there's no way Pittsburgh is trading Giles without Nick Johnson or Claussen in the deal. As much as I'd loooove to see Giles in pinstripes, adding in Claussen (who is supposedly an "untouchable") and Johnson is too much.

What we should be looking into is some bullpen help...

[Obri]

I wouldn't like to add Claussen to the deal, as the Yankees have a history of trading away good prospects for short term solutions, decisions that we later regret. I'm also a fan of Nick Johnson, and he was having a great year before he got injured. However, I would like to explore the possibility of getting Giles, as i'm sure something could be worked out.

[Yankee 21]

Well, for the second day in a row I have heard from two different sports news that the trade would be Nightmare boy and Mondi for Giles.

[Yankee 21]

Brandon Claussen's pitching Saturday night at Shea!!! So, as of yet, there's no worry of him going anywhere. Maybe he'll pitch amazingly and then they'll get rid of
nightmare boy!!
Don't worry Jenny, Sori's not going anywhere!

[jenny]

whew. thank god.

[GiveHyzduashot]

Obri, the Yankees also have a history of really hyping prospects up to be the next so and so, and then they fall flat on their faces.

Weaver and Mondesi for Giles is almost as absurd as just Weaver for Giles .. c'mon, why would the Pirates want Mondesi when he has said he is going to retire after this season (right)? Mondesi is also a huge underachiever, though he's having a good year so far ... but Mondesi is making too much and he is too old for the Pirates to be interested in.

Like I've said, if Giles is traded, Claussen and Johnson absolutely must be in the trade, no questions about it. I don't see at all how Claussen and Johnson is too much. Keep in mind Giles had the second highest OPS in all of baseball last year, and keep in mind Giles has had at least 35 homers, 95 RBI, a .400 OBP and a .590 OBP each of the last four seasons ... or every season he has been with the Bucs. In case you're wondering, the last Yankees left fielder to match those numbers is ... uh ... no Yankees left fielder has done it. The last OF'er to match those numbers was Mantle. Claussen and Johnson are still prospects, and neither has proven a single thing at the MLB level. No way is Claussen and Johnson too much for Giles ... no way.

[GiveHyzduashot]

BTW, I've heard another rumor today not mentioning Giles ... Sauerbeck and Benson for Claussen and prospects.

We shall see, I guess.

[Yankee 21]

Claussen is pitching Saturday at Shea, so I doubt their thinking about trading him until they see how he does.

[GiveHyzduashot]

... or the Yankees have called up Claussen to "show him off" to any teams interested in trading for him, instead of scouting him at AAA blowing away minor league hitters.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by GiveHyzduashot
No way is Claussen and Johnson too much for Giles ... no way.
Maybe I should re-state what I was trying to say.

If we wanted to get Giles, we definitely would have to give up Johnson and Claussen. He's worth at least that. The only problem is that Johnson and Claussen are our two top prospects and would be key pieces in any major trade.

And what we need is pitching.

Giles in our lineup would be sick, but if we're gonna give up Johnson and Claussen it should be for pitching. As much as I'd want Giles, we don't need Giles.

Which is why adding in our two main prospects for a player we don't particularly need is too much.

[pinstripes]

Originally posted by GiveHyzduashot
Giles would be the Yankees best outfielder in many, many, many years ... going back to Reggie Jackson.

Giles isn't better than Bernie Williams. Giles has power, but that's it. Since 96 (when Giles came up fulltime in Cleveland) Williams is better in every category except homers. (And he only has 7 homers so far this year?..... what's up with that?)

Giles since 96:
BA: .302 (career)
HR: 194
RBI: 624
SB: 66
All-star teams: 2

Williams since 96:
BA: .307 (career)
HR: 183
RBI: 722
SB: 98
All star teams: 5

Defensively Williams is faster and has committed fewer errors. There isn't a team in the majors that would take Giles over Williams.

But I think the Yanks might trade Weaver for him :D

[Yankee 21]

Very nicely aid Pinstripes!!!:clap2:

[Cyberlibrarian]

Why in the WORLD would Pittsburgh want Weaver? :umm

And, why would the Yankees want Giles? Bernie's coming back in a few weeks, so why bother?

[Yankee 21]

Jules... I personally don't care where he goes or who gets him or who we get....we could get a three headed monkey as far as I care, as long as he gets the hell outta the Yankee lineup!!!!!

[GiveHyzduashot]

Originally posted by pinstripes
Giles isn't better than Bernie Williams. Giles has power, but that's it. Since 96 (when Giles came up fulltime in Cleveland) Williams is better in every category except homers. (And he only has 7 homers so far this year?..... what's up with that?)

Giles since 96:
BA: .302 (career)
HR: 194
RBI: 624
SB: 66
All-star teams: 2

Williams since 96:
BA: .307 (career)
HR: 183
RBI: 722
SB: 98
All star teams: 5

Defensively Williams is faster and has committed fewer errors. There isn't a team in the majors that would take Giles over Williams.

But I think the Yanks might trade Weaver for him :D

Easy stuff first ... Giles has seven homers because he missed several weeks while on the DL for a knee problem (sound familiar?).

Now .. first of all, you can't skew the stats to your advantage by using 1996 as a reference point .. Giles wasn't playing full time and Williams was. Giles never played full time until 1999 ... his first year with the Pirates; it's only fair to start counting stats after both players have started daily. Let's look at the year by year numbers from 1999 to the end of last season.

Giles, 99:
39 HR, 115 RBI, .315 BA, .418 OBP, .614 SLG, 109 R, 6 SB, 1.032 OPS

Williams, 99:
25 HR, 115 RBI, .342 BA, .435 OBP, .536 SLG, 116 R, 9 SB, .971 OPS

Now, to me, Giles had the better year ... higher homers, equal RBI in anything but equal lineups, higher slugging percentage, and higher on base + slugging percentage. Those, to me, carry more weight than BA, OBP, R, and SB.

Giles, 00:
35 HR, 123 RBI, .315 BA, .432 OBP, .594 SLG, 111 R, 6 SB, 1.026 OPS

Williams, 00:
30 HR, 121 RBI, .307 BA, .391 OBP, .566 SLG, 108 R, 13 SB, .957 OPS

There's no debating needed here. Giles, hands down.

Giles, 01:
37 HR, 95 RBI, .309 BA, .404 OBP, .590 SLG, 116 R, 13 SB, .994 OPS

Williams, '01:
26 HR, 94 RBI, .307 BA, .395 OBP, .522 SLG, 102 R, 11 SB, .917 OBP

Again, no debating necessary. Giles bests Williams in every category.

Giles, 02:
38 HR, 103 RBI, .298 BA, .450 OBP, .622 SLG, 95 R, 15 SB, 1.072 OPS

Williams, 02:
19 HR, 102 RBI, .333 BA, .415 OBP, .493 SLG, 102 R, 8 SB, .908 OPS

Once again, Giles has a far and away better season.

Cumulative totals:
Giles --- 149 HR, 436 RBI, .309 average BA, .426 average OBP, .605 average SLG, 431 R, 34 SB, 1.031 average OPS

Williams --- 100 HR, 432 RBI, .322 average BA, .409 average OBP, .529 average SLG, 428 R, 41 SB, .938 average OPS

So as you can see, since Giles has played full time, he has been clearly better than Williams. And for someone who is faster than Giles, Williams sure doesn't have much of an advantage in stolen bases.

Defensively, Giles has committed a total of 26 errors and has 42 assists. He has also been above average in both fielding percentage (compared to league average) and range factor (compared to league average).

Defensively, Williams has committed 12 errors and has 16 assists. In all four years he was above the league average in fielding percentage, and range factor in the first two years. In the past two years, Williams has been below the league average for range factor.

So to conclude their defensive stats, Williams has a far better error total and a better fielding percentage, but Giles has a stronger arm and has been an above average leftfielder defensively in any way you want to slice the stats.

Regarding the All Star totals ... don't tell me you don't think Torre has had a BIG influence on that, and Giles has only been playing full time for four seasons, and has been an All-Star in two of them (and not being an AS last year was a fu**ing joke).

And pinstripes, your last line is the result of not seeing Giles play every day. Hopefully, you'll now recognize Giles is the better of the two players, with no debate needed, offensively ... and Giles really isn't as bad defensively as he has been made out to be.

One last concluding sentence (I promise) ... I can assure you 95% of the teams in the majors would take Giles over Williams; take my word for it.

[Baseball Guru]

Giles actually played pretty much for the Indians in "97" (He played in 130 games and was pretty much their LF'er)

Anyways, that said I dont know why we are even comparing Giles and Williams as Giles would not go there to replace Williams but rather to add more offense over Garcia, Trammell or Mondesi...

Now that said, I agree with Josh that if I had to pick Giles or Williams I would pick Giles....

In addition to the #'s Josh provided, Giles makes 3 and a half or so million less and is 3 years younger than Williams....

Adds to the attraction:)

[pinstripes]

Now you are skewing the numbers. :) Don't tell me Giles didn't play fulltime until 99. I remember him from Cleveland. So basically Giles has had 4 good years in the majors. But since 99 his numbers have gone down. There are many players who look good for a couple years. Williams obviously has better career numbers because he played longer. But he's also proved the test of time. Giles hasn't. And defensively, I still think Williams is much faster and better.

As for the all-star games, Williams was voted in each year and didn't need Torre's help. (Although this is a shallow standard because NY has more fans, and with Bonds and Sosa in the NL it makes it tougher for Giles)

But the bottomline is 4 World series rings..... it isn't a coincidence that the Yankees started winning championships when Williams and Jeter got there..... Williams is a winner.

The two guys are very similar..... but I'll take Williams! :) I respect your choice of Giles as a Pirates fan :)

Guru.... you bring up a good point with the salary. In the real world salary is important and a lot of good players priced themselves out of the league. :)

:bigsquare :biggrinpa :bigsquare

[GiveHyzduashot]

Since 99 his numbers have gone down? Please look again.

HR, since 99: 39, 35, 37, 38
RBI, since 99: 115, 123, 95, 103
BA, since 99: .315, .315, .309, .298
R, since 99: 109, 111, 116, 95
OBP, since 99: .418, .432, .404, .450
SLG, since 99: .614, .594, .590, .622
H, since 99: 164, 176, 178, 148
BB, since 99: 95, 114, 90, 135
OPS, since 99: 1.032, 1.026, .994, 1.072

If you want to get picky about HRs and say his HR numbers have declined from 39 to 35, 37, and 38, then fine ... but that is frivolous.

RBIs haven't been in a recession since 99.

Batting average has "slipped" to a meager .298, but his OBP has gone up substantially in every season but one.

Runs I included because they're about the only major stat I left off ... but runs are more of who is around you than your own doing.

Slugging percentage fell in '00 by a good bit and in '01 by a small amount ... but it was back up again last year.

Hits have gone up in 2 out of 3 seasons ... so have walks. That's not anything to be picky about.

OPS has fallen slightly, but go check the number of players who have had an OPS over 1.000 in 3 out of 4 seasons .. I'll bet you'll come back with a VERY short list.

It isn't a coincidence the Yankees started winning since Williams came up? Uhh .. check again. In 1993 (first significant time for Williams), the Yankees missed the playoffs. I'll disregard 1994 because of the strike (Yanks were in first at the time). Missed the playoffs in 1995. We know what happened in 1996. 1997, out in the first round. Don't think we need any reminders here about what's happened since 98.

"The bottom line is the 4 WS rings ..." ok, if that's how you want to judge players, then to hell with Pujols, Bonds, AROD, obviously Giles, etc ... and to the hall of fame with Sojo, Wilson, etc. World Series rings just are not an indication of a player's value.

I disagree with your comment that it isn't a coincidence the Yankees have won since Jeter has been called up. No players single handedly win championships ... the other 24 guys on the roster have had just as much to do with the WS rings as Jeter does. Jeter has been surrounded by exceptional players, and that's more of a reason why the Yankees have been successful than the Yankees developing Jeter and calling him up ... simply calling him up doesn't ensure winning. But that's not what this debate is about (and I've enjoyed bantering back and forth with you), so I don't want to divert this thread from its purpose.

BTW, if you want to see an example of someone whose numbers have gone down since 1999, look no further than the very player you are defending. ;)

[PissedPrincess]

I don't see Giles much, so I can't really comment. I do know freakin Bernie is probably the CLUTCHEST Yankee.

I'd be curious as to see who has more 2 out hits, 2 strike hits, game-winning hits.

I've seen Bernie win far too many games to be biased. The bastard.:D