Who should be in the Hall that is not?

[Baseball Guru]

There is a good thread going on at Fever and though I would get some of you guys opinions here about this....

I was doing some research and was really looking at Andre Dawsons career #'s and was wondering what the general concensus was about him being in the HOF along with some others??

Here is some of his resume:

8 time allstar
Rookie of the Year
MVP
Gold Glove'er most of the 80's
78th alltime in runs
42nd alltime in hits
23rd alltime in total bases
38th alltime in doubles
29th alltime in homeruns
27th alltime in RBI's
21st alltime in extra base hits
81st alltime in times on base


I think he should be a legitamate candidate..

What do you guys think and who are some others you think should be in??

I know most would say Sandberg which I agree with and Ron Santo who I could go either way.....

I also definitely think (along with Shon) that Bob Caruthers should be in.... No doubt about that one....

[SMF]

I totally Agree with Andre Dawson. I remember he was one of the Last MVP Winners that I can Think of who was on a losing Ball Club. He had a cannon in the OF too. He deserves The HOF

Sandberg too.\

Ill think of Others, But off Hand I think Hernandez and Mattingly need consideration

[Trots]

Dawson is a tough call, J. My personal HOF would probably not contain Hawk, but I think based on the ever-dwindling requirements for entry, Dawson certainly merits strong consideration as a candidate and is probably a guy deserving to get in.

However, as we have said here about a million times, once you open the door to a player like Dawson, it opens the door to another hundred would-be candidates. Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Bill Madlock, Santo (who I think should be in), Al Oliver, Tony Oliva, Don Mattingly, and a long list of others might gain admission and a longer list of players get would then get serious consideration. Dawson is a Pandora's Box candidate, imo.

Of course, we all agree on Caruthers.

[MadMaxima]

I know this person will evoke a lot of criticism, but I believe Pete Rose should definately be in the HOF no matter what he did as a manager.


Let me know what you think???

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by MadMaxima
I know this person will evoke a lot of criticism, but I believe Pete Rose should definately be in the HOF no matter what he did as a manager.


Let me know what you think???

Uh oh....Don't let B see this or we will get him started;)

I also agree obviously he deserves to be in the Hall for his player accomplishments but he should still be banned from ever being a part of the game again (IE. a manager or coach)

[Steffo]

Why is it called borderline? That means players who might make it in but don't deserve it, you should change the title.....

I believe you aren't being detailed enough as too the best player not in.


Barry Bonds, Sandberg, Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Caruthers, Santo Dawson, RJ, Roger Clemens, Dennis Eckersly, Mcgwire, Gwynn, Ripken, etc......

But of those eligible, Sandberg should be in.

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by Steffo
Why is it called vorderline? That means players who might make it in but don't deserve it, you should change the title.....

I believe you aren't being detailed enough as tpoo the best player not in.



Come back and post when you learn how to spell:hmm:

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Baseball Guru
Come back and post when you learn how to spell:hmm:

Two typos, two stinkin' typos.....

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by Steffo
Two typos, two stinkin' typos.....

:laughing



Sorry, but you grilled me on the title of my own thread so I figured I'd get you back.....
:D

[Steffo]

Yours was a grammar mistake and I didn't know what the thread was aboout except when I read the fist couple posts. I think you knew perfectly well what my post said and meant.....

[WestsideHimself]

Don Mattingly, Ryan Sandberg (my fav player), Pete Rose, Andre Dawson, and Dennis Eckersly for sure are those who should be in the HOF imo!

[*TR]

Caruthers seems to be a favorite here so he must have been previously discussed.

Admittedly I'm not a big fan of pre-1892 (or even 1900) players, but a question or two about Caruthers.

Didn't Caruthers pitch virtually his entire career at a distance of 50 ft rather than the standard 60' 6" ??

Isn't there a 10-year career rule to qualify for the HOF?

I believe that was waived for Addie Joss to be inducted (he played 9 years). Perhaps the Hall has changed that rule, but if not wouldn't Caruthers need a special waiver as he only played 8 seasons?

Why did Caruther's career end at age 28??

Joss recieved a lot of sympathy having died from meningitis at age 31.

A quick perusing of stats does indicate that Caruthers was dominant during his career.

His career length works against him I believe.

I also wonder where were the Caruthers supporters back when there were actually people alive who had seen him play?

At the time of the HOF's first class (1936?) there were certainly some people around who may have seen Caruthers play.

Was he serious candidate back then?

And if not, why??


I'm for a pretty stringent HOF.

Dawson is a personal favorite and I would vote for him....but his selection would add fuel to other borderline calls.

I think Santo should be in.

Sandberg will be in soon.

I think Roger Maris is a much closer candidate than given credit for (back-to-back MVP's isn't too shabby...as well as the greatest HR campaign of all-time).

And along with Bill James I believe Bobby Grich at 2B should have been a much closer call for the Hall than it was. He was virtually ignored.

[Baseball Guru]

There is a 10 seasons played rule..

While Caruthers pitched for 9 seasons he actually played in 10 seasons as he had a dead arm and stopped pitching in 1892 and played the OF in 1893...

He actually had a good bat hitting .282 with a .391 OBP% and 359 rbi's in 705 games played....

He actually played till he was 29....I have been unable to figure out why his career ended at such an early age as the only thing I can think of is that most career's during that era seemed to end at an early age....


This is a neat little tid-bit I found from the baseballlibrary site:
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Caruthers_Bob.stm


Caruthers is among the all-time leaders in winning percentage at .692. He won 40 games twice, posting league-leading marks of 40-13 (1885) and 40-11 (1889) while pacing his teams to pennants. He pitched a four-hitter in his September 1884 major league debut with the St. Louis Browns of the American Association. Considered a heady pitcher who figured out batters' weaknesses, he helped the team to three straight pennants. He earned his nickname when he traveled to France after the 1885 season and engaged in a trans-Atlantic salary battle, settling for the then-huge sum of $3,200.

Caruthers also became a good hitter, and in 1887 he had an amazing season. Playing 54 games in the outfield and 7 at first base in addition to his 39 pitching appearances, he overcame malaria to hit .357 (fifth in the AA) and slug .547 (second) with eight HR (tied for fourth) and 59 stolen bases. He also went 29-9 as a pitcher and won four of St. Louis's five postseason victories in a traveling 15-game series. Despite all this, eccentric owner Chris von der Ahe sold him to the Brooklyn Bridegrooms of the AA after the season for $8,250. Von der Ahe blamed carousing and card playing for his team's defeat in the series, and Caruthers, an expert billiards and poker player, was just one of several scapegoats sold off.

Signing for a $5,000 salary that made him the highest-paid player in the AA, Caruthers earned it by helping the theretofore pathetic Bridegrooms to second place. In 1889, playing only five games elsewhere than the pitching box, his 40-11 season gave Brooklyn its first pennant.

Caruthers was the fourth pitcher in ML history to homer twice in one game, on August 16, 1886; in the same game, he got a triple and a double, to become the third pitcher with four extra-base hits in a game. He lost 11-9 when he was tagged out in the ninth inning trying to stretch his triple into a third HR. In 1893, when the pitching distance was moved back to 60'6" from the former 50', he had a sore arm and only played outfield. It was his last major league season, although he played until 1898 in the minors. (SFS)



At the time of the HOF's first class (1936?) there were certainly some people around who may have seen Caruthers play.

Was he serious candidate back then?

And if not, why??


If you look back the HOF especially back then were sticklers if I can use that term about inducting pre-1900's players...

Hell, even Cy Young didn't get inducted in the 1st class....

Neither did Cap Anson who had the most hits in baseball till Cobb in 1923 and most rbi's till Ruth in 1932...

Cap didnt get recognized till the 4th class.....That is crazy...

There was a bias towards pre-1900's players....

Caruthers is definitely eligible as he was is listed on the final list of 200 players eligible for election in 2003.....

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by Steffo
Yours was a grammar mistake and I didn't know what the thread was aboout except when I read the fist couple posts. I think you knew perfectly well what my post said and meant.....


For you my friend I changed the title of this thread:D

[imgreat95]

West, for being your favorite player, wouldn't you think you would spell his name correctly?? (ryne... not ryan...;))


I have spoken with Rob Neyer a couple of times about the Bob Caruthers issue. We basically came to the conclusion that he has not been admitted to the Hall because of a bias against the AA by the baseball writers. Quite a shame it is, really.

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by imgreat95

I have spoken with Rob Neyer a couple of times about the Bob Caruthers issue. We basically came to the conclusion that he has not been admitted to the Hall because of a bias against the AA by the baseball writers. Quite a shame it is, really.


It's about fricken time you came around in support:D


Well I am going to be heard about this....I have become very passionate about his induction and I am going to write or email until he is either inducted or I get a good answer to as why he is not in there...

B.S.:angry:

[imgreat95]

hey.. i had some beer drinking and playing in mud to do over the weekend. Actually spent close to 5 days witrhout even logging into this site.

Last week was working hard on building lori a computer for her birthday... then her birthday.. then leaving for Watkins Glen.

I still think we should have found someone to talk to when we were in Cooperstown.

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by imgreat95

I still think we should have found someone to talk to when we were in Cooperstown.






DOH!!!:banghead

You are right on, on that one...

This just gives us another reason (like we really need another) to go back:)


Good to hear you had a good weekend:thumbsup:

[imgreat95]

I actually may possibly be going back here within a few weeks.. maybe...

[WestsideHimself]

I never was good at spelling names right.....lol.....thx

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by Baseball Guru
It's about fricken time you came around in support:D


Well I am going to be heard about this....I have become very passionate about his induction and I am going to write or email until he is either inducted or I get a good answer to as why he is not in there...

B.S.:angry:



Caruthers also had a lifetime WHIP of 1.16 which is in the top 14 of alltime.....

[elfudge35]

I see 23 players with more innings than Caruthers and a lower WHIP James, and that's not counting Addie Joss, Pedro Martinez, Monte Ward, Larry Corcoran, Sandy Koufax, Ed Morris, Curt Schilling, Hoyt Wilhelm, Hooks Wiltse, Sam Leever, and Ed Reulbach, all of whom have less career innings than Caruthers, but over 2000 innings and all with lower WHIPs as well, not saying he doesn't deserve to be in, but he wasn't top 14, also wondering why you haven't picked him for your all-time team

[Baseball Guru]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/mlb_historical_leaders.jsp?baseballScope=mlb&statType=2&sortByStat=WHIP&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0

That link shows that his 1.16 WHIP is in the top 14 alltime....It is from MLB.com, which is where I got the info....

Not sure where the innings pitched is coming in as I did not mention that:umm

I just mentioned his WHIP is in the top 14 alltime and that list does include: Addie Joss, Pedro Martinez, Monte Ward, Larry Corcoran, Sandy Koufax, Ed Morris, Curt Schilling, Hoyt Wilhelm, Hooks Wiltse, Sam Leever, and Ed Reulbach.....

[elfudge35]

well, he's 43rd on that list

[Baseball Guru]

lol......I realize that but look at the WHIPS...

1.16 is in the top 14....

There are a lot of players that had the same WHIP...

The WHIP of 1.16 is the 14th best WHIP alltime....

[PopTop]

Originally posted by imgreat95
We basically came to the conclusion that he has not been admitted to the Hall because of a bias against the AA by the baseball writers. Quite a shame it is, really.


And therein lies the biggest problem with the HOF, the year-in, year-out history of bias by the BBWAA ... We can all debate the pros and cons for the admission of players like Mattingly, Dawson and Eck just to name a few ... But can anyone really justify not voting for players such as Banks, Spahn, Mays, Feller, Musial, etc, etc.??? ... Heck, it took DiMaggio until his third ballot to gain entry, HIS THIRD FREAKIN' BALLOT! ... And those players were all denied being elected with 100% of the vote on their first ballots not because of their play on the field, but because of being slighted for an interview, or because they wore the wrong uniform colors or, worse yet, because of their skin color.

For the record the one name that has been mentioned that I think deserves the HOF more than any others is Ron Santo.

[PissedPrincess]

Jim Rice.
:cool:

[*TR]

Guru..thanks for the info on Caruthers.

You didn't refer to my question about pitching distance, but i think I am correct that up until 1892 or 93 the AA pitching mound was at a distance of only 50 feet. That's more than 10 feet shorter than the 20th century standard and it certainly is significant. If you don't think so see fast-pitch softball!!

The difference in pitching distance would make it blatantly wrong to try to compare Caruthers numbers (especially WHIP) to the more modern pitcher chucking from over 10 ft. further out.

You must make a case for Caruthers on the basis of his dominance (which he was) during his time...not by comparing cumulative stats compiled under dramatically different circumstances.

Caruthers is a good HOF candidate, but unless I'm incorrect about pitching distance, all his cumulative stats are suspect when compared to pitchers throwing from 60 ft. 6 inches.

[Baseball Guru]

You are correct about the distance being changed in 1893....

Sorry I missed that part of your thread....

He was dominant and I can compare him to Pud Galvin a HOF'er who also pitched in that era...

Wasn't necessarily trying to compare him to others rather as introduce his #'s in terms of alltime...

MLB recognizes players and stats from AA so he should be recognized as a dominant pitcher in that era....

[Baseball Guru]

For anyone interested;) I dug up the letter I actually sent to King Bud in August.....


Please feel free to insert your name and send it along to Bud in support of Caruthers:D

You can send it to the address listed on the letter:)