Pitch Count or Performance??

[Rockin Robin]

So many times, I've seen a pitcher throwing an incredible game, and has a four, five, six, seven run lead over the opponent. The ball seems glued to the strike zone.

Yet in the 7th, 8th, or even the 9th inning, the pitcher gets pulled. He could be throwing the game of his life, yet he does not get the opportunity for a complete game because of his pitch count. It's virtually an arbitrary number, not affecting his performance. Yet his is not permitted to get the complete game.

So what do you all think???

[awefullspellare]

hire Dusty Baker.... lets um stay in :D

[elfudge35]

well, back in the old days they never pulled a pitcher because of that, but with so much money invested in pitchers who only throw once every 5 days, teams have to make sure their starters can make as many of those starts as possible, pitch counts might not mean anything in the short run, but in the long run, consistent high counts have proven to cause damage to arms, even back when they didn't worry about them, pitchers would be great for 10 years, then their arm would drop off and they couldn't throw again, personally, I think there's something wrong with these pitchers that get hurt all the time, big babies, growing up, I threw 140 pitches twice a week from age 13 through high school and I never had any arm trouble, the only reason I didn't throw past high school was my devastating 75 mph fastball

[PopTop]

The idealistic answer would be there's a compromise between the two, performance and pitch count ... But idealism means very little it seems these days in any facet of life, why should baseball be any different? :notme:

Like ideally one could post a reply to this thread without worrying about some little annoying pop-up ad screaming "Escape Now!" every 37 seconds and then when you look up you realize that about 42 characters you thought you just typed aren't really in the box at all because that darn little ad kept you from getting your original thoughts down on the keyboards ... But in reality the ad does cause all those problems and then you get mad and upset and forget the original subject matter forcing you to instead type, "I'm sorry, I was distracted. Could you please repeat the question?" :freak:

[*TR]

Surely there should some leeway with pitch counts...but not much.

And the younger the pitcher the more stringent the manager should be.

Any modern manager who doesn't pay attention to pitch counts is just uneducated, stubborn, ....or lucky!

Dusty Baker and Kerry Woods make me cringe.

[Rockin Robin]

Ummm, Willie, are you off your meds again?? :umm

[RamsAndAngels]

Originally posted by PopTop

Like ideally one could post a reply to this thread without worrying about some little annoying pop-up ad screaming "Escape Now!" every 37 seconds and then when you look up you realize that about 42 characters you thought you just typed aren't really in the box at all because that darn little ad kept you from getting your original thoughts down on the keyboards ... But in reality the ad does cause all those problems and then you get mad and upset and forget the original subject matter forcing you to instead type, "I'm sorry, I was distracted. Could you please repeat the question?" :freak:

Totally, exactly.

[imgreat95]

Originally posted by elfudge35
personally, I think there's something wrong with these pitchers that get hurt all the time, big babies, growing up, I threw 140 pitches twice a week from age 13 through high school and I never had any arm trouble, the only reason I didn't throw past high school was my devastating 75 mph fastball


You do realize that there is a HUGE difference4 between throwing 140 pitches topping out at 75 mph and throwing even 50 pitches topping out in the mid to upper 90s, right?? Having studied the human body and he physics of how it works fro 6 years in college, I can assure you that there is a world of difference. Heck, for any baseball card fans out there, I remember having n old Topps Nolan Ryan card where it looked like every muscle and blood vessel in his entire body was going to pop out of his body while delivering a pitch.

[ShockRave]

Your the manager of a successful team, your team is riding ihigh into the playoffs, your young stud takes a 7-0 shutout into the 7th inning, however he has racked up 120 pitches, do you risk a pitcher the caliber of a Mark Prior/Jason Shmidt, for a silly statistic such as a shutout or complete game?

The downside, you let him stay in he completes the gem but throws a 140 pitches in the process, his next 2 outings he barely gets through the 5th inning, getting shelled in the process your team skids and you miss the playoffs by one game, in a sport that is dictated by would of should ofs, you lose your job, but at least you ace got his shut out

The upside, you pull him you bullpen mops up and you have a healthy pitcher for the remainder of the season

Most managers (exeption Dusty Baker) are gonna always go with plan B on that, pull the kid let the chumps in the bullpen mop up, and glide into the playoffs, takes all the blame away from them.

Perfect example, Twice this year Pedro has gone nine innings throwing over 120 in both, May 3rd against Minnesota, and August 6th against Anahiem, his next 2 starts he went a total of ten innings giving up 7 runs, and after the May 3rd start he made 2 appearances before landing on the DL for a month,


So I ask ya was it worth it, now in May the Sox BullPen was Horrid at best, so it was a good gamble, but recently the Bullpen has been more than reliable, is allowing Pedro to throw 128 pitches in game with a closer like Kim warmed up in the Bullpen a good idea


this fan says NO:fro:

[elfudge35]

Originally posted by imgreat95
You do realize that there is a HUGE difference4 between throwing 140 pitches topping out at 75 mph and throwing even 50 pitches topping out in the mid to upper 90s, right?? Having studied the human body and he physics of how it works fro 6 years in college, I can assure you that there is a world of difference. Heck, for any baseball card fans out there, I remember having n old Topps Nolan Ryan card where it looked like every muscle and blood vessel in his entire body was going to pop out of his body while delivering a pitch.
you did see where I said age 13, I wasn't soft tossing the ball up there, I was throwing my hardest every pitch, and the 140th pitch was as hard as number 1, my elbow was throbbing after every inning, and I threw so much junk up there I'd put Gaylord Perry to shame, no matter how fast the ball flies, it puts the same strain on your arm if you throw it at maximum capacity, I don't know about anybody else, but if I had the ability to throw it 98 in high school, I wouldn't be, I'd be throwing 95, still dominating and strengthening my arm in the process, you cannot seriously tell me that you think Mark Prior, throwing 93 or 94 so effortlessly puts more strain on his arm than a guy who would throw 84-85 at the same effort level, but he's throwing 88-89 at maximum capacity so he has a chance to make it in the bigs, if you look, every now and then, when he needs some extra juice, Prior pops it up there at 96-97, but a lot of these other guys throwing 88-89 can't physically throw it 91-92

[ShockRave]

You were 13 with a rubber arm and no history of elbow/shoulder problems now double your age, and take into consideration that they too were throwing 140 pitches a game in High school as well, add in 2+ years in the minors, and you may understand why players counts are under severe scrutiny

again does the risk of losing an ace out way the reward of allowing him to pitch longer than he should?

todays game is very much different than our fathers, the money, the length of schedule and the competition have all increased dramatically over the last 20 years, risk losing a middle of the roadmop up relliever while your ace is icing his elbow in the trainers room, that way he is fresh 5 days later when you need him

[Davide20]

nobody throws a 140 pitches a game in high school. get real. i dont even want to hear that stuff. 1) high school coaches arent that stupid. 2) high school schedules are rather long in games for the shortness of days to play them in. therefore, with high school teams running a 3 man staff on average a coach wont throw a ki 140 pitches and have him rest his arm for 5 days. in high school the pitcher is playing 3rd base or right field the next day in another game. 3) Very rarely will you throw that many pitches and be effective. my point here is if youve reached 140 pitches in a 7 inning high school game then you probably got touched up to throw so many pitches per inning and to get touched up that badly merits removal.


pitch counts are vital for all youngsters. Mark Prior is the exception. Im more worried about Dusty Baker handling ay Kerry Wood than Mark Prior as far as pitch count goes(sounds odd yes but think about it for a second). Has anyone handled young pitchers better than Bob Melvin or Ken Macha? these guys know what theyre doing and have done great jobs thus far in their new roles as head coach. Dusty Baker should coach the yankees next year. hed fit in perfectly. No regard for player healthy or future consideration as long as they win the Series.


Asking if Pitch Count is more important than performance is a stupid question really that we all know the answer to. If a guys logged 92 pitches after 6 but has given up 4 hits and 2 walks and Ked 9 giving up 0 or 1 runs and has relatively good stuff you leave him fo the seventh. if he looks drained you yank him. but once they hit the 110 mark a manager should KNOW to get him out of there immediately. anotehr thing, importantly is that the pitch count isnt so important. I wouldnt mind throwing 112 pitches with say a Rich Harden. But next time he starts dont let him throw 102. LEt him go 5 or 6 sharp at around 85 or 90 pitches tops. Whree Baker's theory screws up is when he lets MArk Prior throw over 110 pitches consistently. Give the kid an outing of 120 pitches if you want Dusty. But dont let him top 90 for 2 or 3 of his next starts then he can go full throttle for 8 or 9 innings again.

[awefullspellare]

even Dusty wouldlnt leave Kerry in up 7-00 in the t7h... 2-0... maybe...