GaryMrMets
11-12-2003, 09:26 PM
Which player most deserves to be added?
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
None
Other (Discuss)
Which player most deserves to be dropped?
James Worthy
Bill Sharman
Dave Debusschere
Billy Cunningham
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
None
Other (Discuss)
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/sports/article.adp?id=20031112112709990011
Time for a New Lineup?
In 1996, the NBA picked its 50 greatest players. But that was seven years ago. A lot has changed. New stars have emerged. Careers have been reconsidered. Michael Jordan's even retired two more times. So who are the 50 best now?
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0b/06/20031112142709990012
Who's In and Who's Out
By STEVE ASCHBURNER, AOL Exclusive
Baseball has it easy, relatively speaking.
Thanks to Joe DiMaggio's ego at a bunch of old-timers' games, winter banquets and other diamond functions, the tag "World's Greatest Living Ballplayer'' was created and applied to DiMaggio during introductions... until his death in 1999. After that, it was passed on briefly to Ted Williams, who took his "Greatest Bleeping Hitter Who Ever Lived'' claim to the cooler with him, and more recently to Willie Mays. Alex Rodriguez, we think, was No. 53 in line as of last Thursday.
The NBA created a stickier wicket for itself when it came up with its list of 50 Greatest Players, in conjunction with the league's golden anniversary celebration at the All-Star Game in Cleveland in 1997.
As impressive as the names on The List were, the fact that only one of the legends, Pete Maravich, was deceased, was even more amazing. Forty-seven of them, from Mikan to Michael, were in Cleveland that February weekend -- Valhalla apparently was booked -- with only Shaquille O'Neal and Jerry West missing. Their loss, by the way.
The thing is, seven years have passed since the Nifty 50, selected by the proverbial blue-ribbon panel of players, coaches, administrators and media folks, was announced. That's a lifetime in pro sports, not to mention about a significant chunk of the NBA's existence.
Several players active in 1997 and named to the team have retired. More important, several more whose careers still weren't fully formed have established themselves as equals, or better, to the men on The List. It seems kind of silly, for instance, to talk about the NBA's 50 Greatest and then be forced to offer the disclaimer, "Oh, but Tim Duncan's not on it.''
In fact, for The List to maintain its relevancy, it needs to be a living, breathing roster, reflecting not only the game's tradition but its dynamic present. Otherwise, it ends up as strictly time-capsule stuff, a relic from the 20th Century like space food sticks or hula hoops or Gerald Ford or rotary telephones -- things that make kids today go, "Huh?''
So we're going to fix it. No time for a blue-ribbon panel -- this is simply one man's way of updating The List for the new players' sake, and The List's too. Unfortunately, there is a downside: Arithmetic says that, if we're going to add a few guys to the 50 Greatest list, then we're also going to have to subtract a few. Otherwise, there wouldn't be 50, now would there?
Sure, this seems a little callous, a bit cold, so soon after bestowing the honor. Well, them's the breaks. These guys had to survive roster cuts their entire careers, and had plenty of teammates and friends who didn't, so they know how this beast works.
Besides, we don't think of this as a demotion or a public booting. Let's just say it gives the legends whose spots we're, ahem, reclaiming, first dibs at the post-party buffet and open bar. Everybody else has to stand out on the court, posing for fresh photos with the new guys.
Ground rule No. 1: We aren't going to fix any omissions from 1997; if someone wasn't deemed worthy of The List back then, such as Dominique Wilkins, Bob Lanier or Bob McAdoo, and he hasn't done anything great in his NBA career since, he stays out. Right or wrong.
Ground rule No. 2: Since Shaquille O'Neal was selected after playing only four seasons, four seasons will be the minimum for eligibility. But longer still is better, as far as career achievements.
Ground rule No. 3: There is no "quarterback rating'' formula, with strict values placed on NBA titles or MVP trophies won. Basketball is a jazz sport and this is an intuitive thing.
So, after much previous ado, with an imagined horn fanfare, here is the In Crowd, the newest members of The List:
TIM DUNCAN, San Antonio Two titles, two MVP awards in just six seasons, and fundamentals that date back almost to the peach baskets.
KOBE BRYANT, L.A. Lakers The nastiness of this summer complicated his selection. But he would have made it by the end of the Finals last spring, so he gets in with a Pete-Rose, good-enough-before-his-misdeed asterisk. (Sorry, Dennis Rodman fans, his misdeeds were too entwined with his performances.)
ALLEN IVERSON, Philadelphia His top stats (27.0 ppg, 2.38 steal) make up for his shooting percentage, and for most of his career, he's had to play the way he plays for Philadelphia to win.
KEVIN GARNETT, Minnesota He's stuck in the first round. But his versatility is rivaled only by Larry Bird; they're the two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and five assists for four consecutive years. And only Wilt Chamberlain, in a given year, posted better numbers in all three categories than Garnett's 23.0, 13.4 and 6.0 last season.
JASON KIDD, New Jersey The consummate playmaker and probably the best rebounding point guard ever. Two straight trips to the Finals, with still developing teammates, strengthens his case.
GARY PAYTON, Seattle Another guy who never has "won,'' if counting by rings. But his defense has set a standard, and 18.3 ppg and 7.4 assists, with nine All-Star appearances over 13 seasons, isn't shabby.
Guess what? That's it. Other guys either were close-but-not-quite (think Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady) at this point in their careers. A few (Grant Hill, Alonzo Mourning) were stymied by injuries. Stephon Marbury is the only player besides Oscar Robertson to average 20 points and eight rebounds, yet he still hasn't done enough. For Reggie Miller's reputation as a shooter, his scoring average (18.9) is not imposing.
And as much as we were tempted to include LeBron James, we're not lowering the minimum experience bar from four years to four games quite yet.
Now for the awkward part. Six new members means six expulsions... er, reclassifications. We'll try to be gentle here. We will also refrain from picking unduly on the old school, because they earned their spots in Springfield (and Paul Arizin was a helluva player -- you could look him up). Remember, without the heroes of the Sepia-BA, there might be no NBA, no NBA.com, no NBA TV and all the multimedia, revenue-generating subsidiaries:
JAMES WORTHY Sting of this should be soothed by his Hall of Fame induction. But really, at his peak value, would you have traded any of the six new guys even-up for "Big Game" James?
BILL SHARMAN He averaged 17.8 points, scored 12,665 and played only 711 games. His time with the Celtics and Lakers enhanced his resume and added sentiment to his pick.
DAVE DEBUSSCHERE The Knicks teams of the early 1970s may be the greatest ensemble in NBA history, but right now, there are five guys from those clubs (Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Lucas, DeBusschere) on The List in what seems like East Coast bias. What, no Bill Bradley, Dick Barnett or Mike Riordan?
BILLY CUNNINGHAM If Philadelphia gets The Answer on The List, then Billy C might have to go. He averaged 20.8 but only played 654 games.
WES UNSELD Unseld has stayed around the NBA as a coach and an executive, which probably didn't hurt his case with the voters (many of them his friends). He was a great, undersized center, a marvelous rookie, a one-time MVP and a stoic rebounder and leader. But 10.8 points per game is a little light for this roster.
BILL WALTON Strange case (how appropriate for the Deadhead): He might have wound up on the NBA's Mt. Rushmore, but his foot injuries made him the league's Gale Sayers. Only 468 games, only 6,215 points, a 13.3 scoring average and just two All-Star appearances.
Here, too, there are bubble guys, whose credentials put them near the bottom of The List and who might not survive as the talent marches on. But decorum prevents us from naming names. At least until their chairs are needed.
11-03-03
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0e/04/20031112122609990004
IN Kobe Bryant
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0f/07/20031112122609990016
OUT James Worthy
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/06/06/20031112122709990005
IN Kevin Garnett
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0e/07/20031112122809990005
OUT Bill Walton
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
None
Other (Discuss)
Which player most deserves to be dropped?
James Worthy
Bill Sharman
Dave Debusschere
Billy Cunningham
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
None
Other (Discuss)
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/sports/article.adp?id=20031112112709990011
Time for a New Lineup?
In 1996, the NBA picked its 50 greatest players. But that was seven years ago. A lot has changed. New stars have emerged. Careers have been reconsidered. Michael Jordan's even retired two more times. So who are the 50 best now?
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0b/06/20031112142709990012
Who's In and Who's Out
By STEVE ASCHBURNER, AOL Exclusive
Baseball has it easy, relatively speaking.
Thanks to Joe DiMaggio's ego at a bunch of old-timers' games, winter banquets and other diamond functions, the tag "World's Greatest Living Ballplayer'' was created and applied to DiMaggio during introductions... until his death in 1999. After that, it was passed on briefly to Ted Williams, who took his "Greatest Bleeping Hitter Who Ever Lived'' claim to the cooler with him, and more recently to Willie Mays. Alex Rodriguez, we think, was No. 53 in line as of last Thursday.
The NBA created a stickier wicket for itself when it came up with its list of 50 Greatest Players, in conjunction with the league's golden anniversary celebration at the All-Star Game in Cleveland in 1997.
As impressive as the names on The List were, the fact that only one of the legends, Pete Maravich, was deceased, was even more amazing. Forty-seven of them, from Mikan to Michael, were in Cleveland that February weekend -- Valhalla apparently was booked -- with only Shaquille O'Neal and Jerry West missing. Their loss, by the way.
The thing is, seven years have passed since the Nifty 50, selected by the proverbial blue-ribbon panel of players, coaches, administrators and media folks, was announced. That's a lifetime in pro sports, not to mention about a significant chunk of the NBA's existence.
Several players active in 1997 and named to the team have retired. More important, several more whose careers still weren't fully formed have established themselves as equals, or better, to the men on The List. It seems kind of silly, for instance, to talk about the NBA's 50 Greatest and then be forced to offer the disclaimer, "Oh, but Tim Duncan's not on it.''
In fact, for The List to maintain its relevancy, it needs to be a living, breathing roster, reflecting not only the game's tradition but its dynamic present. Otherwise, it ends up as strictly time-capsule stuff, a relic from the 20th Century like space food sticks or hula hoops or Gerald Ford or rotary telephones -- things that make kids today go, "Huh?''
So we're going to fix it. No time for a blue-ribbon panel -- this is simply one man's way of updating The List for the new players' sake, and The List's too. Unfortunately, there is a downside: Arithmetic says that, if we're going to add a few guys to the 50 Greatest list, then we're also going to have to subtract a few. Otherwise, there wouldn't be 50, now would there?
Sure, this seems a little callous, a bit cold, so soon after bestowing the honor. Well, them's the breaks. These guys had to survive roster cuts their entire careers, and had plenty of teammates and friends who didn't, so they know how this beast works.
Besides, we don't think of this as a demotion or a public booting. Let's just say it gives the legends whose spots we're, ahem, reclaiming, first dibs at the post-party buffet and open bar. Everybody else has to stand out on the court, posing for fresh photos with the new guys.
Ground rule No. 1: We aren't going to fix any omissions from 1997; if someone wasn't deemed worthy of The List back then, such as Dominique Wilkins, Bob Lanier or Bob McAdoo, and he hasn't done anything great in his NBA career since, he stays out. Right or wrong.
Ground rule No. 2: Since Shaquille O'Neal was selected after playing only four seasons, four seasons will be the minimum for eligibility. But longer still is better, as far as career achievements.
Ground rule No. 3: There is no "quarterback rating'' formula, with strict values placed on NBA titles or MVP trophies won. Basketball is a jazz sport and this is an intuitive thing.
So, after much previous ado, with an imagined horn fanfare, here is the In Crowd, the newest members of The List:
TIM DUNCAN, San Antonio Two titles, two MVP awards in just six seasons, and fundamentals that date back almost to the peach baskets.
KOBE BRYANT, L.A. Lakers The nastiness of this summer complicated his selection. But he would have made it by the end of the Finals last spring, so he gets in with a Pete-Rose, good-enough-before-his-misdeed asterisk. (Sorry, Dennis Rodman fans, his misdeeds were too entwined with his performances.)
ALLEN IVERSON, Philadelphia His top stats (27.0 ppg, 2.38 steal) make up for his shooting percentage, and for most of his career, he's had to play the way he plays for Philadelphia to win.
KEVIN GARNETT, Minnesota He's stuck in the first round. But his versatility is rivaled only by Larry Bird; they're the two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and five assists for four consecutive years. And only Wilt Chamberlain, in a given year, posted better numbers in all three categories than Garnett's 23.0, 13.4 and 6.0 last season.
JASON KIDD, New Jersey The consummate playmaker and probably the best rebounding point guard ever. Two straight trips to the Finals, with still developing teammates, strengthens his case.
GARY PAYTON, Seattle Another guy who never has "won,'' if counting by rings. But his defense has set a standard, and 18.3 ppg and 7.4 assists, with nine All-Star appearances over 13 seasons, isn't shabby.
Guess what? That's it. Other guys either were close-but-not-quite (think Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady) at this point in their careers. A few (Grant Hill, Alonzo Mourning) were stymied by injuries. Stephon Marbury is the only player besides Oscar Robertson to average 20 points and eight rebounds, yet he still hasn't done enough. For Reggie Miller's reputation as a shooter, his scoring average (18.9) is not imposing.
And as much as we were tempted to include LeBron James, we're not lowering the minimum experience bar from four years to four games quite yet.
Now for the awkward part. Six new members means six expulsions... er, reclassifications. We'll try to be gentle here. We will also refrain from picking unduly on the old school, because they earned their spots in Springfield (and Paul Arizin was a helluva player -- you could look him up). Remember, without the heroes of the Sepia-BA, there might be no NBA, no NBA.com, no NBA TV and all the multimedia, revenue-generating subsidiaries:
JAMES WORTHY Sting of this should be soothed by his Hall of Fame induction. But really, at his peak value, would you have traded any of the six new guys even-up for "Big Game" James?
BILL SHARMAN He averaged 17.8 points, scored 12,665 and played only 711 games. His time with the Celtics and Lakers enhanced his resume and added sentiment to his pick.
DAVE DEBUSSCHERE The Knicks teams of the early 1970s may be the greatest ensemble in NBA history, but right now, there are five guys from those clubs (Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Lucas, DeBusschere) on The List in what seems like East Coast bias. What, no Bill Bradley, Dick Barnett or Mike Riordan?
BILLY CUNNINGHAM If Philadelphia gets The Answer on The List, then Billy C might have to go. He averaged 20.8 but only played 654 games.
WES UNSELD Unseld has stayed around the NBA as a coach and an executive, which probably didn't hurt his case with the voters (many of them his friends). He was a great, undersized center, a marvelous rookie, a one-time MVP and a stoic rebounder and leader. But 10.8 points per game is a little light for this roster.
BILL WALTON Strange case (how appropriate for the Deadhead): He might have wound up on the NBA's Mt. Rushmore, but his foot injuries made him the league's Gale Sayers. Only 468 games, only 6,215 points, a 13.3 scoring average and just two All-Star appearances.
Here, too, there are bubble guys, whose credentials put them near the bottom of The List and who might not survive as the talent marches on. But decorum prevents us from naming names. At least until their chairs are needed.
11-03-03
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0e/04/20031112122609990004
IN Kobe Bryant
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0f/07/20031112122609990016
OUT James Worthy
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/06/06/20031112122709990005
IN Kevin Garnett
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0e/07/20031112122809990005
OUT Bill Walton