Roster nearly settled

[Yankee 21]

Yankees' roster nearly settled
By Mark Feinsand / MLB.com






Yankees Winter Meetings checklist
NEW YORK -- After reportedly acquiring several arms to bolster their pitching staff in the past week, the Yankees have just one major move left to complete the winter plan: Sign Andy Pettitte.

Of course, that may not be as easy as New York had hoped it would be, as the Houston Astros are trying to lure the left-hander home to Texas. Pettitte was reportedly offered a three-year deal by Houston, and while the Yankees will surely do everything in their power to retain the 21-game winner, his return to the Bronx is no sure thing.

General manager Brian Cashman, who orchestrated last week's four-player trade that brought Javier Vazquez to the Bronx, will probably try to hammer out a deal with Pettitte's agents, Randy and Alan Hendricks, during the meetings. Cashman hasn't said much of late, as George Steinbrenner has ordered the front office to remain silent in the media.



Randy Hendricks said last week that he expects Pettitte to sign somewhere by the end of the Winter Meetings, so the Yankees will likely make their biggest push this week.

With Vazquez, Mike Mussina, Jose Contreras, Jeff Weaver..OVER MY DEAD ROTTING BODY!!!! and Jon Lieber currently under contract, Pettitte would give the Yankees six starters, allowing them to choose between Weaver and Lieber for the final spot. David Wells, who underwent back surgery last week, could also return with an incentive-laden one-year deal.

Unlike last year, when the Yankees entered the Winter Meetings in search of a few position players and with major questions surrounding both the starting staff and bullpen, New York's roster is remarkably settled as this year's meetings approach.

The final cog in the starting offense will be put into place when the reported signing of Gary Sheffield becomes official. With backup catcher John Flaherty and utility infielder Enrique Wilson returning, the Yankees need to sign a first baseman to replace Nick Johnson and fill out its outfield, though David Dellucci and Karim Garcia are both arbitration-eligible. Kenny Lofton's name has come up in several reports as well.

Among the free agents who could fill Johnson's spot are Rafael Palmeiro, Fred McGriff and Scott Spiezio, though the Yankees could wait until Dec. 20 to see what players are non-tendered by their current clubs.

Some reports have speculated that the Yankees want to make Bernie Williams a full-time designated hitter, but that could be a dangerous move, as Jason Giambi will surely need to take some at-bats as the DH, given his injury history.

There are a couple of scenarios in which Williams would become the DH. One would be for the Yankees to sign another center fielder, maybe Lofton. The other would have New York signing a second baseman and moving Alfonso Soriano to the outfield.

The Yankees re-signed Felix Heredia, and have reportedly come to terms with both Tom Gordon and Paul Quantrill, with Gabe White set to sign any day. The glut of relievers, combined with the return of Steve Karsay from shoulder surgery, will likely spell the end of Chris Hammond's tenure in New York, as the Yankees will try to deal the left-hander.

Should Pettitte decide to sign with the Astros, the Yankees could go after one of a number of free-agent hurlers, including Bartolo Colon, Kevin Millwood, Greg Maddux or Sidney Ponson. They could also turn their attention to pulling off another deal, possibly for Los Angeles' Kevin Brown.

Although the Yankees don't have a lot of holes to fill, the ones they have open will certainly keep Cashman busy in the Big Easy.

If their is a Santa Claus, a Great God of baseball or anyone else who cares:
PLEASE LET US SIGN ANDY....PLEASE!!!!!!

[milky_way]

I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether Andy will be a Yankee.

From what I've read, it seems like the Andy's the one dragging his feet, not the Yankees...it seems like NY has had an offer on the table for ages...

Andy wanted to test the market. He did, and he didn't get any serious offers other than Houstons, which was $30 million for 3 years (and Houston denies offering that). Then he reportedly asked for $15-16 million per year from the Yanks, which IMO is totally unreasonable. And if there's a third team in all this then all that "Family or the Yankees" talk was BS.

Assuming that the Astros did indeed offer Andy $30 million for 3 years, then the Yankees have offered Andy more years AND more money.

If Andy signs with Houston for LESS years and LESS money, then NY never had a chance at him.

If Andy doesn't want to stay, I wish he'd just SAY SO ALREADY, so the Yanks can look to other options. We've already lost Colon. Options are dwindling here! :banghead

[Yankee 21]

I think he's gonna sign..hell I'd rather see him get the money than Shefield..the fool. I think Andy's just testing the waters..can't blame him..he's always been with the Yankees..but I can't see him going to the Astros from the Yankees...no offense Astros fans but I think he'd rather be a Yankee!

[Cyberlibrarian]

Not so fast.

WEPN, WFAN and WEEI are all reporting that Pettitte has already taken the physical and will be an Astro by the end of the week.

[Yankee 21]

I'll believe it when I see it..but hey, if that's what he wants..so be it..everybody is replaceable right?

[Cyberlibrarian]

Replaceable? Yes. But how easily?

I'd rather have Pettitte than Wells, Lieber or Contreras. In a big game, I'd rather have Pettitte than Clemens.

[redsoxman]

Pettitte an Astro? Looks like from what I've read.

I just looked through my crystal ball and it told me that the Red Sox have a better starting rotation than the Yankees. :D

[Cyberlibrarian]

As of right now, the core of the 2004 rotation (in no particular order) is:

Weaver
Lieber
Contreras
Wells

I don't know about the rest of you, but this rotation does not make me quake in my boots.

Weaver is a headcase. Lieber won't have pitched in about a year-and-a-half. And we all know that Tommy John surgery can take a while to recover from.

Contreras was injured most of '03 and, while he did do well in limited outings, the key word here is "limited." He's a question mark as far as I am concerned.

Wells is over 40, but his body is at least 50, even with this most recent surgery. His back is a time bomb.

Obviously, the games are played on the field and not on paper, but I'd be more scared of Pedro, Schilling, Lowe and Wakefield than the top 4 that the Yankees have right now.

[redsoxman]

I thought the Yankees were re-signing Wells to a minor league contract? Or am I mistaken? I thought I read that on espn.com somewhere.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
As of right now, the core of the 2004 rotation (in no particular order) is:

Weaver
Lieber
Contreras
Wells

I don't know about the rest of you, but this rotation does not make me quake in my boots.

Weaver is a headcase. Lieber won't have pitched in about a year-and-a-half. And we all know that Tommy John surgery can take a while to recover from.

Contreras was injured most of '03 and, while he did do well in limited outings, the key word here is "limited." He's a question mark as far as I am concerned.

Wells is over 40, but his body is at least 50, even with this most recent surgery. His back is a time bomb.

Obviously, the games are played on the field and not on paper, but I'd be more scared of Pedro, Schilling, Lowe and Wakefield than the top 4 that the Yankees have right now.
Um...two quite key starters you forgot:

Mike Mussina and Javier Vazquez, our two best pitchers.

Rotation as of right now:
Moose
Vazquez
Contreras
Wells
Weaver/Lieber

Suddenly the rotation looks a lot better eh? :eyebrow

If Andy wants to go to Houston then fine. I can't blame him for wanting to be closer to his family. But to me it seems like he was playing the Yanks from the beginning. If he goes to Houston for less money and less years, then he was set on going to Houston from the beginning. The reason I'm pissed right now is that Andy dragged his feet for two months and now Colon has already signed with the Angels :angry:.

The Yankees will be okay. The Yanks are the reason behind Pettitte's success MUCH more than Pettitte is the reason behind the Yankees' success. "The Commitee" will most likely make a pitching move if we did indeed lose Andy.

And I honestly think that Andy is the one that's making the big mistake. He isn't gonna get that bloated run support in Houston, and I'd be shocked if he pitched an entire season the way he pitched the second half of this past one. I have too many memories of "Shutout-one-day, Blowout-the-next" Andy Pettitte to go for that.

And let us not be blinded hy his brilliant (and I do mean brilliant) playoff performance this past October. For every big game he's won for us in his career there's a big game he bombed too...

It's still not official, and I still want Andy to be a Yankee. But I'd rather see him go somewhere else than for the Yanks to grossly overpay someone who would be their #2-3 starter at best.

It's quite ironic how both the Yanks and Pettitte were lying, the Yanks when they said Andy was their "number 1 priority" and Pettitte when he said he "couldn't imagine playing anywhere else."

If Andy does leave then I wish him the best. And the Yanks will be okay.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
I'd rather have Pettitte than Wells, Lieber or Contreras. In a big game, I'd rather have Pettitte than Clemens.
I'll repeat it again, for every big game Andy has won, there's a big game Andy has bombed.

I think I'd take a Roger Clemens or a Wells who doesn't blow out his back in the first inning (no, I'm not bitter ;)) ahead of him. I definitely would take a Mike Mussina ahead of him anyday, and twice on Sunday.

That said, I still want Andy back. But the myth that Andy is and has always been a stopper for the Yanks is just that, a myth.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by redsoxman
I thought the Yankees were re-signing Wells to a minor league contract? Or am I mistaken? I thought I read that on espn.com somewhere.
That's what I've heard too. I'm not sure if its finalized yet :umm

[Cyberlibrarian]

Are you telling me that CLEMENS never bombed in a big situation? I'd read up on history if I were you. Clemens took weeks to win #300 and, except for his Yankee years, he does not have a fabulous record in the post-season (through 2002, he's 6-6 in 22 games -- that's a helluva lot of no decisions -- this year he was 3-1 in 4 games). I'd prefer Pettitte in a big game to Clemens. So would a lot of people out there.

And, while I'm doing my homework on Clemens's numbers, I'd check Vasquez's stats. He's pitched 17 interleague games, and has done TERRIBLY in them. It's not a huge sample, to be sure, but it's about the same as that of some players who are labeled chokers in the post-season.

And Mussina is no spring chicken. He's just turned 35, and his future is behind him.

The only lefty in that rotation is Wells and he's proven that he can be unreliable.

I stand by what I said. The Yankees have not done themselves a favor by dumping Pettitte.

When Pettitte was "in the fold," he was wonderful and a "great Yankee" but, now that it looks as if he's leaving, he's chopped liver and expendable?

Explain this to me. :umm

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
Are you telling me that CLEMENS never bombed in a big situation? I'd read up on history if I were you. Clemens took weeks to win #300 and, except for a few starts in 2000 and 2001, does not have a fabulous record in the post-season (he's 6-6 in 22 games -- that's a helluva lot of no decisions). I'd prefer Pettitte in a big game to Clemens. So would a lot of people out there.
Hey, NO WAY am I saying Clemens never bombed a big game. We have Game 7 of the ALCS this past season as proof that Clemens is far from perfect when the pressure's on too. I should have added that it would be a tough choice between Clemens and Pettitte, although I still would probably choose Clemens. It's just my opinion that this past postseason was a fluke for Andy, simply because never before has he been consistent. Prior to this postseason, I'd go into playoff starts that Andy pitched thinking we had a 50-50 chance of winning. Again, I'll repeat, this past postseason was a totally different story, but you have to wonder whether that was the REAL Andy Pettitte or if it was a fluke.
Originally posted by LeiterFan

And, while I'm doing my homework on Clemens's numbers, I'd check Vasquez's stats. He's pitched 17 interleague games, and has done TERRIBLY in them. It's not a huge sample, to be sure, but it's about the same as that of some players who are labeled chokers in the post-season.
I have to disagree here. IMO it's unreasonable to weigh Vazquez's numbers in 17 games vs. the AL more heavily that his numbers vs. the NL. If you're a good pitcher you're a good pitcher, regardless of what league you play in. And Vazquez looks like he's real good pitcher, and he has the numbers to back it up.
Originally posted by LeiterFan

And Mussina is no spring chicken. He's just turned 35, and his future is behind him.
Has Mike Mussina shown any signs that age has caught up to him? Nope, none at all. He was excellent this past season, the BEST pitcher on the team. I'm not saying that Moose will be improving next season, and the Yanks don't need him to. If he pitches 2004 the way he pitched 2003 then the Yanks are well off. I think it's quite absurd to argue that Moose will not be effective next season when he pitched great this past year, has no history of injuries, and has shown no signs of slowing down.
Originally posted by LeiterFan

The only lefty in that rotation is Wells and he's proven that he can be unreliable.
The lack of lefties is definitely a concern. However, it's not an argument that can be used for Pettitte, since lefties hit Andy better than righties do. Nonetheless, it isn't wise to play 82 games in Yankee Stadium with a rotation that boasts only one lefty.
Originally posted by LeiterFan

I stand by what I said. The Yankees have not done themselves a favor by dumping Pettitte.

When Pettitte was "in the fold," he was wonderful and a "great Yankee" but, now that it looks as if he's leaving, he's chopped liver and expendable?

Explain this to me. :umm
Of course the Yankees' aren't doing themselves a favor by losing Pettitte (notice I don't say "dumping", because I firmly believe that the Yanks have made efforts to sign Andy to a more than reasonable contract; ANDY is the one that balked). But all hopes of success won't be killed if Andy leaves either.

I do consider Andy a "great Yankee" because of what he meant to the 96-01 Yankees' dynasty. But I don't and never did think that he was worth $15 million a year, which is reportedly what it would take to keep him. IMO $15 million is money that should only go to a top-notch pitcher, i.e. a Barry Zito, Mark Prior, Josh Beckett. Andy is NOT and never will be that caliber a player. He's a solid starter and a wonderful person, but he's not a $15 million guy.

The Yankees made Pettitte, not the other way around. He's not "chopped liver" and he's not easily replaceable, but he's not Whitey Ford either. The Yankees would have to make moves to replace him, but he is replaceable.

[milky_way]

Andy giving the Yanks one last shot to negotiate a deal.


:Pray: Please be reasonable Andy...:Pray:

[Yankee 21]

The NY papers are saying that the Yankees went late into last night with negotations and that their giving it one more shot and that Andy's decission should be announced tomorrow.
Tell me something..where the Hell is the Loyalty here??? Christ it's all about Money anymore..really what the hell are you gonna do with all that money anyway?? Can't take it with you.
If Andy wants more money and has no loyalty to the Yankees..let the Astros have him..lets see how happy he is when he doesn't go to the WS anymore..no offense Astros fans...
We have
Moose
Vasquez
Boomer
Conterares
and there are other pitching possiblity trades..those first four starters don't look so bad to me..as long as they don't get stupid and let Nightmare start..

[Cyberlibrarian]

If Andy wants more money and has no loyalty to the Yankees..

First -- the Astros are offering far LESS money than the Yankees, so your argument there holds no water.

Second -- what loyalty have the Yankees ever shown to HIM? George has tried to trade him umpteen times, and Torre has had to step in and remind him just how good Andy is.

But Torre probably won't be back after the '04 season, so why should Andy come back and be treated like dirt again? So far this off-season, the Yankees have met/made deals with Felix Heredia, Paul Quantrill, Gary Sheffield, Tom Gordon and Ruben Sierra. How is that showing loyalty to Andy?

Pettitte has a career W-L record that places him among the top Yankee left-handers of all time. Yet George and his minions put him at the bottom of their list of priorities.

I ask yet again, how is that showing loyalty to Andy, and how can you say that he owes them any?

Yankee fans who were thanking God for him in Game 2 against the Twins, Game 2 against the Sox this year, and Game 5 against the Braves in 1996 are now saying "good riddance" and "don't let the door hit you on the way out" to him. I just don't get it.

:umm

[Yankee 21]

I'm not saying good riddance to him at all..believe me I want Andy to sign but all this money crap is getting out of hand. From all that I have read, the Astro's have offered him more money than the Yankees so it is, atleast, a little bit about the money. By Loyalty I mean, We know George is an asshole..Andy's been there for ten years and I'm sure it wasn't in the recent years that he figured that out for himself, I'm sure it's been quite evident for atleast 8 of his ten years with the Yankees. But Christ, he's been a Yankee for ten freakin years..the Yankees made him...I think alot of this has to do with the fact that Rocket isn't there anymore and Andy's wife wanting him in Texas and Rocket will also be in Texas..Andy started working out with Rocket the last few years and they have become very good friends.
Hell, I don't know..I'm just frustrated as hell!!:notme:

[Cyberlibrarian]

The Astros are paying him around $11 million a year. The Yankees apparently countered with $13.

And, while you might not be trashing him, an awful lot of Yankee fans are. At NYYfans.com, there are people trashing his integrity, his manhood, his wife and his honesty.

It's disgusting IMO.

[Yankee 21]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
The Astros are paying him around $11 million a year. The Yankees apparently countered with $13.

And, while you might not be trashing him, an awful lot of Yankee fans are. At NYYfans.com, there are people trashing his integrity, his manhood, his wife and his honesty.

It's disgusting IMO.

I totally agree..but you know how I feel about fans like that.

[Cyberlibrarian]

Very true.

BTW, the deal is done. The press conference is this afternoon.

Michael Kay is TRASHING the team for doing this.

[rockin500]

well, there is no state income tax in texas. so the difference isnt QUITE as much. (though definitely doesnt offset the supposed difference between contracts)

George seemed to be dragging his feet on the negotiations and only did a last ditch effort. shouldnt they have made him their first priority instead of pursuing sheff or Kevin Brown?

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
Second -- what loyalty have the Yankees ever shown to HIM? George has tried to trade him umpteen times, and Torre has had to step in and remind him just how good Andy is.

But Torre probably won't be back after the '04 season, so why should Andy come back and be treated like dirt again? So far this off-season, the Yankees have met/made deals with Felix Heredia, Paul Quantrill, Gary Sheffield, Tom Gordon and Ruben Sierra. How is that showing loyalty to Andy?

Pettitte has a career W-L record that places him among the top Yankee left-handers of all time. Yet George and his minions put him at the bottom of their list of priorities.

I ask yet again, how is that showing loyalty to Andy, and how can you say that he owes them any?

Yankee fans who were thanking God for him in Game 2 against the Twins, Game 2 against the Sox this year, and Game 5 against the Braves in 1996 are now saying "good riddance" and "don't let the door hit you on the way out" to him. I just don't get it.

:umm
How about all those times when Andy sucked and the Yanks stuck by him??? Loyalty goes both ways.

There's a REASON Andy was in all these trade talks. He's been a career #3 pitcher, with the exception of this past year. Many seem to forget that prior to this season Andy would command nothing close to $11 million per year...

How about loyalty to the team that MADE him? Andy's saving grace is his win-loss record. He's a career 4+ ERA guy, but he has a great win-loss % because he plays with 8 all stars behind him.

That said, I'm not mad at Andy. I don't think he lacks loyalty; I think he had his priorities in order. Family > Loyalty, and if his family wanted him in Houston then he should be in Houston. I'm sure the decision was awfully hard to make. I don't think the Yankees owe him anything, and he doesn't owe the Yankees anything either.

Originally posted by LeiterFan

Yankee fans who were thanking God for him in Game 2 against the Twins, Game 2 against the Sox this year, and Game 5 against the Braves in 1996 are now saying "good riddance" and "don't let the door hit you on the way out" to him. I just don't get it.

:umm
I'll repeat it again. For every big game Andy's won, there's a big game Andy blew.

Perhaps some fans feel Andy hasn't realized how lucky he's been to have the opportunites he's had in the past 8 years. Maybe that, combined with the emotion of seeing Andy go, leads to resentment. I don't know if that's the case with the fans you mention, but it could be.

I love Andy for those mentioned wins and for many more, but at the same time I haven't forgotten Game 2 of the 2002 ALDS, Game 6 of the 2001 WS, etc. I wanted him back and am sad to see him go, but the Yankees will survive.

[Cyberlibrarian]

This is incredible. You are saying that a guy who is 71 games over .500 for his career is easily replaceable. I repeat -- PETTITTE IS 71 GAMES OVER .500.

I'll repeat it again, for every big game Andy has won, there's a big game Andy has bombed. His career record in the post-season is 13-8. That's not quite "for every big game Andy has won, there's a big game Andy has bombed." Yes, his career post-season record is not as good as his career record (.619 vs .656), but it's still damned good. Mussina's career winning percentage is .644 -- lower than Pettitte's -- and his career post-season winning percentage is .500. Also lower than Pettitte's. Granted, W-L doesn't tell the full story. But neither does ERA when taken in a vacuum.

Yankee fans never fail to amaze me with their absolute disregard for the good fortune they have. Most teams would KILL for a #3 pitcher who is 71 games over .500. Whose career ERA is under 4.00.

My explanation? Sour grapes. It must be difficult for them to go through what those of us who root for the other 29 teams do -- namely that, in the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "you can't always get what you want." It's something that most people learn early in life, but so many Yankee fans out there are so spoiled that they never learn it. I never thought I'd hear it here.

:notme:

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
This is incredible. You are saying that a guy who is 71 games over .500 for his career is easily replaceable. I repeat -- PETTITTE IS 71 GAMES OVER .500.

His career record in the post-season is 13-8. That's not quite "for every big game Andy has won, there's a big game Andy has bombed." Yes, his career post-season record is not as good as his career record (.619 vs .656), but it's still damned good. Mussina's career winning percentage is .644 -- lower than Pettitte's -- and his career post-season winning percentage is .500. Also lower than Pettitte's. Granted, W-L doesn't tell the full story. But neither does ERA when taken in a vacuum.

Yankee fans never fail to amaze me with their absolute disregard for the good fortune they have. Most teams would KILL for a #3 pitcher who is 71 games over .500. Whose career ERA is under 4.00.

My explanation? Sour grapes. It must be difficult for them to go through what those of us who root for the other 29 teams do -- namely that, in the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "you can't always get what you want." It's something that most people learn early in life, but so many Yankee fans out there are so spoiled that they never learn it. I never thought I'd hear it here.

:notme:
Why don't you stop judging a person's character just because their opinion differs from yours :hmm:

Win-Loss record is NOT a stat that should be used to judge individual players. Why? Because W/L is a TEAM stat MUCH more than it is an individual stat. ERA, WHIP, H, IP tell MUCH more about a pitcher than W/L does.

If Mike Mussina had Andy Pettitte's luck (and by luck I mean run support) for 8 years then he'd have an incredible winning % too. In fact, by comparing Mussina and Pettitte's winning % you have contradicted your own argument. Mussina is a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte, and yet his winning % does not reflect that. Conclusion? Winning % means nothing when comparing two pitchers, unless you're comparing which pitcher luckier than the other.

I can't look up the numbers of every playoff game Andy has pitched (must study soon, I'll research it tomorrow), but for almost every big playoff win, I can remember a big playoff loss.

BELEIVE ME, I'm VERY thankful for having Pettitte for the past 8 years. But as you said yourself, he's a #3 starter, and he wanted to be paid #1 starter money. To me that's unreasonable. I'm sad to see him go because he's been solid and he's a wonderful person, but I'm not going to cry or lose all hope in next season because I DO believe he's replacable. IMO Vazquez is as good a pitcher and may very well be a better one.

[Obri]

Julie, I for one am not saying "good riddance" to Pettitte. I'm very sad to see him go. And I must agree with milky on a few things.

First off, Andy has often been disappointing in the playoffs, despite his 13-8 record. Besides, I think it was Willie in the Astros forum who said something like, "Any pitcher who stayed with the Yankees through this run of playoff appearances could have won 13". Spot on IMO. I'm not undermining that particular acheivement on the part of Pettitte, but the man has as point.

Secondly, as much as you want there to be, there are NO sour grapes on the part of Yankee fans, especially here. We are just disappointed at the fact that Andy appeared to have made his mind up weeks ago.

Originally posted by milky_way
Why don't you stop judging a person's character just because their opinion differs from yours :hmm:

Exactly. Everyone here is more than happy for you to post here, and voice your opinions on trades and other news. What we do not appreciate is you using us as a venting outlet for your obsessive hatred of everything to do with the Yankees. Frankly, it's tiresome, and no one wants to read about it.

[Cyberlibrarian]

I was not impugning anyone's character simply because they differ with me. I was merely pointing out that, both here and on other boards, I have seen Yankee fans dismiss Andy as if he were yesterday's dirty laundry and, frankly, I was shocked to see it because the Yankee fans at my office were walking around looking as if their mother had died.

See my confusion?

While he might be the #3 on the YANKEES, he's not a #3 pitcher. As I said before, find me a #3 pitcher on any other team who is 71 games over .500 for his career. Aren't the Yankees a team that everyone said had 5 aces? If that's the case, then Andy's definitely not your typical #3. Typical #3 pitchers do not have a record like his -- including an ERA like his. Including an AMERICAN LEAGUE ERA like his. I honestly think this will come back to haunt the team. You should be pleased that I am shocked that they would dump him. ;)

[Yankee 21]

Somebody tell me why everything that happens around here with the Yankees, trades, games, everything has to turn into a god damn mud slinging match????

[rockin500]

he's a number three starter? lol riggggght. that is severely underestimating andy. on any other team (outside of maybe oakland and chicago and the red sox) he is their number one starter.

ERA doesnt always matter. when you are spotted a 6-0 lead, you pitch to the score. so you give up hits, give up some runs. hence, the higher ERA.

He wins. thats all that matters.

[milky_way]

Originally posted by LeiterFan
I was not impugning anyone's character simply because they differ with me. I was merely pointing out that, both here and on other boards, I have seen Yankee fans dismiss Andy as if he were yesterday's dirty laundry and, frankly, I was shocked to see it because the Yankee fans at my office were walking around looking as if their mother had died.

See my confusion?
I don't think anyone on this board is dismissing Andy as "dirty laundry". All of us have said how much we appreciate what Andy's done for the team and are sad to see him go. What we have been trying to point out is that while his leaving does hurt the Yanks, he is replaceable. Just because we aren't cursing Steinbrenner for not throwing $20 million more at him or screaming that the dynasty is over does not mean we're dismissing Andy as "dirty laundry."

But I understand your point, as I have been to other boards and I know that some Yankee fans are reacting very bitterly. Just like after losing a big playoff game, people react in different ways. Some people do or say rash things that they later wish they could take back. I know I've been guilty of this in the past, and it wouldn't surprise me if other fans are falling victim to this too. It isn't a character flaw, its simply human nature for emotions to run wild in a situation like this. It isn't until after emotions have subsided that a person can think straight.

There's some bitterness towards Andy, and a little bit of betrayal. Andy did say he wanted to come back. He did say that he wanted to "finish what they (Jeter, Bernie, Mo) started". He did say he couldn't imagine playing anywhere else. Whether those where his true feelings or just business statements, we don't know, but there's a feeling of betrayal when he left for less money and less years after all that fuss about wanting to come back. As loyal fans who've rooted for him through ups and downs, some may feel that Andy owed it to them to just say that he didn't want to come back instead of hinting it through his father's interview with the NY Times and other "sources." Then again, maybe that's not why they're bitter, but its certainly a possibility.

There's shock, because many wouldn't have made the decision Andy made if they were in his position. You talk about it and you know that him leaving is a possibility, but you never really believe the rumors until they become a reality. I always thought Andy would come back, and I'm sure that many other Yankee fans thought so too. Him leaving was a shock that many weren't prepared for.

Lastly there's sadness. I think when the dust settles most Yankee fans will be feeling this more than anything else. When someone who's been a fixture on the team for 8 years suddenly leaves, it takes a while for reality to sink in. And I think for most people the reality is that Andy is a great person who made a decision for family reasons, and no matter what the Yankees did, it wasn't gonna change his mind. There's no need to blame Andy, there's no need to blame the Yankees. The only thing you can do is accept that what's done is done, and move on. I think the bitterness and resentment of many Yankee fans will fade in the end.

JMO
Originally posted by LeiterFan

While he might be the #3 on the YANKEES, he's not a #3 pitcher. As I said before, find me a #3 pitcher on any other team who is 71 games over .500 for his career. Aren't the Yankees a team that everyone said had 5 aces? If that's the case, then Andy's definitely not your typical #3. Typical #3 pitchers do not have a record like his -- including an ERA like his. Including an AMERICAN LEAGUE ERA like his. I honestly think this will come back to haunt the team. You should be pleased that I am shocked that they would dump him. ;)
No Andy isn't your typical #3 starter. But with the exception of this past season, he's been far from a #1 starter on a good team either. I always had the feeling that Andy was the type of pitcher who you had no clue how he'd fare in a game. He could pitch a gem or he could get blown up. He has an erratic history of doing so. But at the end of the season he usually puts together solid stats, with an ERA around 4 and a whole lot of wins.

But is that the kind of pitcher who should command a $15 million a year contract? No, its not.

What happens if the run support goes, and he's cursed with a year like the 2001 Mike Mussina? What happens if he doesn't get the 6 run lead to work with, and he can't afford to pitch to the score?

Although the saying "its better to be lucky than good" is catchy, the bottom line is its better to have GOOD pitchers than LUCKY pitchers. I'm not saying Andy isn't a good pitcher, because he is quite a good one indeed, however the leverage he has over many other good pitchers is that he's "a winner," which, IMO, should hardly be used in an argument comparing two players (unless that player is Jeter, but there aren't many players like him).

A comparison stolen from the Neyer article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=1684191):
Pitcher A: 21-8, 4.02 ERA, 227 H, 208.1 IP
Pitcher B: 19-12, 3.58 ERA, 236 H, 239.0 IP

Which pitcher would you rather have? Pitcher A, the "winner", or Pitcher B, who bests Pitcher A in three significant pitching stats?

Pitcher A, as you can guess: 2003 Andy Pettitte
Pitcher B: 2002 Mark Buehrle

Buehrle pitches in the AL too. And he's getting less than half the money Andy asked from the Yankees annually. And he's as good as Andy, some may argue even better. He just doesn't have that "winner" tag on him. Then again, maybe if he played 8 years with the caliber of players Pettitte had behind him he'd be a "winner" too.

JMO

[rockin500]

i'd rather have pettitte than buerhle. i've seen buerhle blow up more spectactorly than pettitte. ;)