Poor, Poor Stoney......Et al

[barzilla]

In an earlier thread I expressed regret for Ricky that he had to be sent down. Of course, I felt bad not because he didn't deserve to get sent down, but it is always sad to see an effective player suddenly become ineffective. His return has shown nothing to change our minds and I think it might soon be time to make a change. Harville's injury hopefully won't take long to heal and we could wait the fifteen days, but if it turns out to be a long-term injury, here are our minor league bullpen options:

1. Tony Fiore- the guy won ten games in Minnesota in 2002 and pitched well in Spring Training. He currently has an ERA in the mid 4.00s

2. Kirk Bullinger- Bullinger is struggling in AAA, but he was a callup last year and could be a mop up guy for a few weeks.

3. Chris Enoch- Who? Well, he has the best reliever ERA on the team so that's why he's on the list.

Otherwise, Wade Miller went out of the sixth inning with a pain in his neck. The neck pain cost him about eight starts a couple of years ago so it bears watching.

[PopTop]

Otherwise, Wade Miller went out of the sixth inning with a pain in his neck. The neck pain cost him about eight starts a couple of years ago so it bears watching.

No lie! :( Sure hope this isn't anything at all.

Ok Scott, defense ... Can't remember the exact number you've thrown out there before, believe it's around 10%-15% as far as the role defense plays in a baseball game ... I've always argued it plays more ... So, will you admit that Cabrera's catch on Kent's potential gapper last night really changed this game and affected the outcome more? ... I really think it changed the whole complexion of the game from then on, along with the two saves Dontrelle made on balls hit back through the mound.

I know you mean the role of defense in games generally speaking ... Certainly any single game can be dominated more by offense, defense or pitching ... Maybe over the course of an entire season, maybe there are only so many games that are dictated by defense ... Last night, we had a game dictated by starting pitching, defense and short-porch homers ... But I still don't think you can expose yourself to undervaluing defense over the long haul.

You know me, always trying to convince you that defense (and speed) are more valuable than you currently see it. :D

[barzilla]

Pops,

Your statement is correct on its face. If Cabrera had not made the play on Kent it would have been a different game. There is no disputing that. The problem with the "defense wins games" argument is that we don't know how many right fielders would have made that play. Admittingly, Cabrera was not an outfielder until this year. Is it possible that a more experienced outfielder could have made that play without making it look spectacular? Ken Griffey Jr. was famous for this in the 1990s. He would make a "great" play that others would make easily. Therefore, Griffey is a "great" fielder.

My point has never been that defense is unimportant, but that the relative difference between fielders is such that it is rendered unimportant. My contention is that Richard Hidalgo and some other right fielders could have made that play on Kent.

[PopTop]

Pops,

Your statement is correct on its face ... The problem with the "defense wins games" argument is that we don't know how many right fielders would have made that play. Admittingly, Cabrera was not an outfielder until this year. Is it possible that a more experienced outfielder could have made that play without making it look spectacular?

First off, quit talking about my face, I know I'm ugly and hideous, just don't rub it in :freak:
;)
Ok, excellent point ... I can think of a few CF in Astros history to illustrate your point in general that it's difficult to gauge "causes, effects and results" ... Let's look at Terry Puhl and Steve Finley, both very excellent players and defensive performers ... You probably didn't get the honor of seeing Puhl play defense much, but you certainly grew up following Finley and others, as well as good descirptions of Puhl from your dad and his brothers (your Uncle Greg may say Cesar Cedeño is the bee's knees as far as Houston CF's go since CC was from Studsville when Greg and I were in high school) ... Anyway, Puhl & Finley were probably equal in terms of overall defensive abilities: Both have speed, instincts and strong arms.

But watching them both play was night and day ... Though I know he did dive and slide at time, I really don't picture Puhl doing that on defense ... He was so fluid, and I will definitely put Puhl's instincts, positioning and first steps up against any outfielder the Astros have ever had in their jersey ... Bar none, Puhl never made a bad move on his initial step.

Finley, on the other hand, was just as fast and just as fluid as Puhl, yet Finley was always diving, skidding, running into walls, the whole smear ... Now, was Puhl really a better outfielder because he seemed more graceful, or do some of those diving catches of Finley's prove him the better outfielder because he at least appeared to give his extra effort?

And when Cabrera made that catch last night, Dierker noted that was two nights in a row he'd robbed someone with a super effort on defense, yet Cabrera wasn't noted for being a real good defensive outfielder.

Ok, so we both agree that you can't really quantify defense on a per play/per player or even team-by-game basis ... And now I have you at least leaning and admitting that defense is important (if it's not "unimportant," it must be important :D ) ... But if you can't put defense into a nice, neat column of numbers, then how can so many dismiss it's importance and how much it figures into a game/season?

[Toy Cannon]

Pops,

Is it possible that a more experienced outfielder could have made that play without making it look spectacular?

My contention is that Richard Hidalgo and some other right fielders could have made that play on Kent.

Scott is right on on this. Cabrera circled the ball that Kent hit and almost misplayed it. He recovered and made up for it with his dive. A good RF would have caught it on the run.

[barzilla]

Ok, so we both agree that you can't really quantify defense on a per play/per player or even team-by-game basis ... And now I have you at least leaning and admitting that defense is important (if it's not "unimportant," it must be important ) ... But if you can't put defense into a nice, neat column of numbers, then how can so many dismiss it's importance and how much it figures into a game/season?

Pops,

I remember hearing stories about how Satchell Paige would order all of his fielders to leave the field when he pitched to Josh Gibson. Obviously, this is a ludicrous example, but it points to the obvious fact that defense is important because the average teams must record about twenty outs a game with fielding. I have never personally seen any pitcher (or team) play less than eight fielders (not counting pitcher) so that point is moot. However, we can all think of specific examples where a team put a guy out there where they might have been just as well to leave the position open.

Yet, I believe these occurrences have and will happen less and less. If you look at basic fielding numbers over time you will see that fielding has become much more normalized as equipment and athleticism has improved. In days gone by, you would have expected a team to put a player like Cabrera in the minors before throwing him into a different position (Ron Gant is a good example of that). Now, players routinely change position without showing many ill effects of it. Cabrera has shown some problems in right, but he might even be an average right fielder right now. Biggio certainly did and still shows that he has some difficulties in center, but to the casual observer they think Biggio is normal.

If we really want to do something quasi-scientific on fielding I would suggest you get between 10 and 20 people to watch every Astros (or 10 to 20 for whoever their home team) and tally the number of plays each fielder made that they think the average fielder at that position wouldn't have made and the opposite. Then, cross-reference those lists to get some kind of acceptable number. Then, you would have a good gauge of a player's fielding ability and how many times he helps/hurts his team. Of course, who has the time to do that?

[Toy Cannon]

Sounds like this has become an offense .vs defense debate. A team has a player whose offense abilities out weigh his defensive shortcomings (is that 2 words?). How do you approach the situation? Cabrera for instance, is a potent bat capable of providing offensive numbers (runs) for his team. His glove work leaves a little to be desired right now so, you as manager have a decision: stick his bat in the line-up or go with someone who has the instincts and ability to play the position? The guy is such a good hitter, the choice is obvious, play him and take your chances. It's not that Cabrera is a bad fielder, he just doesn't have the expierence. OK, not a good example, let me grab another beer.

Thats better :beer:. In last nights game, Biggio has a ball glance off his glove in CF and the tying run scores and the eventual winning run ends up on 3B. Biggio, as you all know, is at best an average CF (and one with no arm whatsoever). A good CF catches the ball, the runner stays at 1st and the Astros most likely win the game. Biggio is off to a good offensive start this year so management decides that his bat is more important than his defensive liabilities. In the recent past, Lance Berkman (who will never win a gold glove at any position) roamed CF because of his bat, not his glove. Why? Houston is an offensive team now where they will score more runs because of Lance's bat than he will give up because of his glove.

It is more of an offensive game now than it was when I was growing up. In the 60's and 70's the game was built around pitching, speed and defense. To me, that's part of the beauty and poetry of Baseball. Too much emphasis on the HR now for me, but I guess that's what it takes to win games these days AND, more importantly, it puts asses in the seats. Most people now would rather watch some big guy hit one out of the park than see a shortstop dive and take away a base hit away from a batter.

Did I make a point? :notme: I don't think I did. I need another beer. :beer:

[barzilla]

TC,

Yes, you did make a point. I think you're point is two-fold:

1. Offense is much more important now than even ten years ago.
2. Defense had a much bigger gap in the past between good and bad than it does now.

The end result is that offense trumps defense now more than ever.