I hate to say I told you so but.......

[barzilla]

I remember in the off-season when we were discussing where to cut salary and a couple of observations were made:

1. We couldn't trade Richard Hidalgo because no one would take on his salary and we wouldn't get enough for him.
2. Hidalgo would be a key part of the offense and would likely do better this year.

Now, he has only four home runs and isn't even getting on base 35% of the time. Jason Lane could have produced those numbers and we could have kept Billy Wagner to keep our dynamite bullpen.

BTW, how are those guys from the Wagner trade doing?

Duckworth= 1 win, 6.00 ERA plus
Buckholz= 0 wins, 7.00 ERA plus in New Orleans
Astacio= 4 wins, 4.00 ERA plus in Round Rock

hmmmmm............

[PopTop]

Yeah, but nobody would take Hidalgo and give us three players of any value ... We could've had Wagner on the DL, some punk in Double-A from a Hidalgo trade and still be paying up to half of Doggie's salary ... How would we be any better off :notme:

[barzilla]

Pops,

First of all, we speculated about paying part of Doggie's salary but we really don't know what any deal could have brought. It is never a good idea to evaluate a trade after two months but let's take a look at what we know so far:

1. While Billy Wagner is hurt, we cannot necessarily assert that the injury would have happened in Houston and we know it won't sideline him for the whole season even if it did. The question I'm putting forth is whether we would rather have Billy Wagner or Richard Hidalgo for most of the 2004 season? For me, the answer is pretty simple because Hidalgo has been ineffectual beyond his hot first couple of weeks and Wagner has been perfect in Philly. Even if you allow for the injury he likely would have closed out the Opening Day effort and one more problematic game. If we assume that this team will be in the race in September ask yourself which player you would rather have.

2. This is the part of the deal that is impossible to really evaluate, but you say "three players of any value." Is Brandon Duckworth really that valuable to you right now? Couldn't Kirk Saarloos or Pete Munro have done what he has done to this point (and probably better). Taylor Buckholz looks further away from Houston with each passing start and Astacio will be 27 or 28 before he even sniffs Houston. Again, who knows what we could have gotten for Hidalgo.

[PopTop]

Wagner wrote his own exit by moaning about the front office. He b!tched and moaned all the time, especially after they cut Shane ... "Aw, how mean! Drayton and Gerry are mean!" :crying2: <==Wagner

The heck with Wagner, if he was unhappy here, then get the flock outta' Dodge! :angry: If Wagner thought it was worth $5 million to keep Shane around, let him pay Reynolds ... That $5 million mean ol' Drayton saved making a good decision on Reynolds is what we're paying Clemens this year, by the way.

You're right, we don't know if Wagner woulda' been hurt, but the fact is he is ... We also don't know if trading Hidalgo woulda' meant paying any of his salary, but we also can't say that Lane would be doing even as well as Hidalgo and we don't know if anyone we might have received for Hidalgo woulda' been any better than the three we did get for Wagner ... I really loved watching Wagner pitch, but I say the hell with these crybabies, and I would have made the same decision to keep Hidalgo over Wagner if that really was what drove the "save money to buy Pettitte" strategy ... Quackworth was the only pitcher we got in the deal that we expected might help us this year ... And no, hell no!, do I think we would be any better off with Saarloos or Munro up to now all season ... Duckworth has been bounced all over the pitching staff and totally mishandled up to now ... What the HELL was he doing being asked to pitch last Saturday night in the 9th inning when they thought there was a very good chance he would be starting on Tuesday? ... If the deal was to try and get him some work in anticipation of starting Tuesday in Chicago, then why the HELL wasn't he the one called on first in relief of Miller last Saturday, and why was he called on to pitch just the 9th while Miceli, your normal 7th-inning man, asked to try and pitch over two freakin' innings in the middle-long relief role that game?

I'm just not buying the whole "we'd have been a lot better off right now trading Hidalgo" argument, at least yet.

[Toy Cannon]

Scott, one thing you conveniently fail to mention is that if Wags had not been traded, Andy Pettitte WOULD NOT be here. OK, you're going to come back at me with the Pettitte has been on the DL twice argument. Wags on the DL cancels that one out. We needed SP's and Pettitte and Roger give us that. Hmmm, do I want Billy Wagner or would I rather have Andy Pettitte AND Roger Clemens? Can't have all three. With Dotel and Lidge in the pen, that's a no brainer. Sure, the pen isn't as strong, but the SP is a wee bit better, wouldn't you say?

Hidalgo is w/o question struggling now, but you saying "Hidalgo has been ineffectual beyond his hot first couple of weeks " is more than a little wrong. He had a great first MONTH and his second month sucked. Does this mean that he is done, through, caput, washed up stick a fork in him he's done? NO, it doesn't. Talk to me at the end of July where we have a better read on the situation. Don't panic and start with the "I told you so's" at the beginning of June, people will think you're a Red Sox fan. :D (just kidding Princess:wink: )

[barzilla]

We can bad mouth the Princess all we want but I have accomplished a couple of things she has on her board. :)

1. I have managed to piss off a couple of reasonable people. :luvkiss:
2. We get to drudge up old stuff.

Now, let me address a couple of points one by one.

1. I always maintained that I believed Hidalgo would produce closer to 2001 and 2002 than he did in 2000 and 2003. Right now he is proving me right. Yes, he could turn it around, but I have never liked Hidalgo as a hitter. Yes, he has power, but he tries to pull just about everything and he doesn't have as much patience as Bagwell, Berkman, and Ensberg. (Biggio and Kent are just about equal with Hidalgo)

2. I understand the animous towards Billy Wagner except I happen to agree with him. It has never been a secret that I have never been a Drayton McClane fan. I think he is a better salesmen than people think. We are essentially spending the same amount of money in 2004 as 2003 and he looks like Daddy Warbucks in the press. Whether or not Shane Reynolds was a good or bad investment is immaterial. The point is that this guy has never been willing to truly extend himself after the Drabek/Swindell fiasco.

3. Yes, I would rather have Pettitte and Clemens and I realize that they were a package essentially. I'm saying that it didn't have to be Wagner or Pettitte/Clemens. It could have been Hidalgo or Pettitte/Clemens. Hell, if Drayton would have extended himself ten million dollars they ALL could have been on the team.

[Astro Annie]

The only thing I disagree with is that we could have found a taker for Hidalgo. Don't get me wrong--I believe in Gerry--I just don't think that we could've gotten anything useful for him.

And yeah, I'm with you and Wagner about Draytie. But that doesn't mean it was cool for Wagner to go 'round saying it. When I was working, I didn't go 'round telling the world what a jerk the owner of the business was and how he was trying to sabotage the company. Nuh-uh. I really feel for him (this isn't about me wanting him back, though I do) having to work in those conditions, but that doesn't make him right. I'm not mad at Billy. I'm just profoundly dismayed that he eiither didn't get it or couldn't contain himself. Maybe that's a sign that I'm getting old.

[PopTop]

Whether or not Shane Reynolds was a good or bad investment is immaterial.
Saving $5 million is very material in my book.


We are essentially spending the same amount of money in 2004 as 2003 and he looks like Daddy Warbucks in the press.
Drayton's never looked like a willy-nilly spending Steinbrenner or Angelos in my book ... And I quit gobbling up everything as fact that Houston's leading misinformation source dished out a long time ago.


I have managed to piss off a couple of reasonable people
You haven't pissed me off, nor do I consider myself a reasonable person all the time ... I'm just not ready to throw the towel in on either the trade we did make or Hidalgo who I envision will have a strong second half as he plays for a new contract.

[Sandy]

As a side-note to this discussion, I have a question.

How good is Dan Miceli? Really.

The reason I ask, is I'm in a ROTO fantasy league which includes Holds and K/BB ratio as two of the six pitching categories. Miceli looks like the best available on my league wire at the moment - but I have no feel for the likelihood of him continuing to rack up Holds (he's got 8 at the moment), or maintaining his 5.00+ K/BB ratio.

Opinions?

[barzilla]

Pops,

I know I didn't piss you off really. I'm just enjoying a hearty debate on a normally sleepy board. I think we got a couple of decent prospects for Wagner to be honest. I'm frustrated that Buckholz is in the tank right now, but I have to disagree on Saarloos and Duckworth. Saarloos was a very effective relief pitcher and at least an occasional effective starter. However, that is immaterial as Munro takes over in the rotation.

Annie,

I think the problem we're having is a matter of perspective. I know that there are those of us who complain about my boss to everyone that will listen. The difference is that there is not a camera and microphone stuck in our face. It's hard for me to hold Billy Wagner to a different standard than I would hold myself to. I know there are times when I am ashamed at how often I badmouth the boss. I would like to believe that he reached a breaking point where he couldn't hold it in anymore. Perspective also is needed in understanding the context of when the comments were made. The Astros had just narrowly lost the division and people were saying the Astros choked. While I honor any athlete that can admit that he choked I find that we are often blamed for low test scores or high failure rates in our business and it makes me want to shout from the roof tops that poor discipline and lack of desire on behalf of the students, lack of supplies, and little support from downstairs was the reason. Now, I also have some personal responsibility in that, but frustration with lack of knowledge about these other factors gets the best of me. I think it got the best of him too.

Sandy,

Hmmmmm, I like to go with a track record and the one for Miceli is spotty. I think Miceli will continue to be the 7th inning guy in Houston. He should get plenty of opportunities, but I don't think he will continue to be as effective as he has been.

[PissedPrincess]

I'm pissing folks off at an alarming rate. :(

Is it my fault we have INCOMPETENT managers? :angry:

[Astro Annie]

'Zilla,

It's okay to badmouth your boss--to some people. But not to others. And it's the knowing the difference that's important. I swear that everything he'd said, I'd typed in a forum somewhere and more besides. If he'd've had an internet account and posted under some innocuous-looking login name like Astroguy, he could have spouted off all he wanted to.

[PopTop]

As a side-note to this discussion, I have a question.
How good is Dan Miceli? Really.

Miceli's a better pitcher than Jimy will ever be a manager. That's my opinion.

[barzilla]

PP,

You haven't pissed anyone off here. I think people were noticing the difference between Red Sox fans and Astros fans in general. Face it, we're just not as rabid. However, like many people around here, I am getting more and more impatient. We love you. That's all I have to say.

Annie,

Ultimately your are right. There are people are work that are reknown snitches and you simply don't say anything evenly slightly controversial because you know it will get back to the boss and sound even worse than if you had actually told the boss yourself. I think you are basically right about the forum of Wagner's comments. I know that when I was a coach I always tried to communicate privately with players I had a problem with wanted them to do the same. I know that if I had a teammate that called me out in the press more than once then I would kick his a**. I honestly can't remember how often Wagner went off on McClane. If it was only that once then I will not

Pops,

I agree with that 110%

[Toy Cannon]

We can bad mouth the Princess all we want but I have accomplished a couple of things she has on her board. :)

1. I have managed to piss off a couple of reasonable people. :luvkiss:
2. We get to drudge up old stuff.



Let me say first that I was NOT bad mouthing the Princess, nor would I ever do that. She is my absolute favorite person on this board :love: and that is saying alot, as everyone in here is fantastic. I love this place. :Party:

Also, Scott, you did not piss me off. You have your opinion, I have mine. We share a love for baseball and the Astros and just because we disagree, doesn't make us angry. :wink: One thing I think we all agree upon is, Jimy is a moron. :angry:

[PissedPrincess]

I swear Jimy is managing the Sox today. We have a AAA line-up today, and tomorrow is an off day. Our worst pitcher, Lowe is on the mound, and Francona is sitting Ortiz, Bellhorn, and Daubach.

Did I mention tomorrow is an off day? :angry:

And Lowe gives up a 2 run BOMB in the first!

EFF YOU FRANCONA! :Puter:

[Astro Annie]

Well, that explains why Lane got a start in RF today...Jimy's not all here. ::rolling

[barzilla]

Actually, a couple of things are on my mind:

1. Y'all took the pissing you off comment a little too seriously. The way I figure it, we could continue to post two or three "Jimy Sux" posts a week and all be happy or we could disagree on some stuff.

2. I never figured Francona would be this bad. I think when I'm hiring a manager I ask if they consider themselves to be a conventional manager. If they say no I add them to the short list.

3. The TV announcers were saying that they may give Lane a few more starts in right field while Hidalgo is struggling. I'm thinking: it's about time. We cannot afford to lose one major run producer in our lineup (Hidalgo struggling or Palmeiro hitting a bunch of singles). Lane can hit with pop and approximate Hidalgo a lot more than Palmeiro could. Of course, the best case scenerio is for Hidalgo to approximate Hidalgo.