Centralized Management

[Sandy]

With all the Jimmie bashing going on (and I believe rightfully so), I figured it'd be nice to compare the NL Central managers, to get a feel for how they rank. These are my own personal opinions, and I'm opening the floor for debate.

1) Tony LaRussa -- Entering 2004, his overall is: 2009-1789 (.529), including three trips to the WS ('88-'90), with one win. His ability to win division titles is outstanding. His ability to make playoff runs, highly suspect. Great knack for breeding success and getting guys at-bats intelligently. Often turns lemons into lemonade, as injuries don't generally derail his success rate. Seems to work well with both youngsters and vets.

2) Dusty Baker -- Entering 2004, his overall was: 928-789 (.540), including one WS loss. His string of 1/2 finishes is impressive, but also suffers in the post season. He's a veteran's manager. Juggles lineups pretty well for the most part, but is generally biased in favor of vets at the expense of youth. Has rep of over-using his best pitchers, though he doesn't seem to have the overall staff arm woes of teams like Houston and Florida. I wouldn't want him to rebuild my club - but a solid manager for a veteran team.

3) Dave Miley -- 22-35 in partial 2003 (34-23 so far in 2004). In his first full season, he's done a masterful job with a team NOBODY expected to contend. While the offense had some potential, the pitching was deemed to be dreadful. Last season, 15th in the NL in ERA and 14th in walks and HRs, there wasn't much to work with. While the team still has a lousy ERA (13th), they jumped to having the second FEWEST walks allowed in the NL. They've won an impossibly large number of close games, (evidenced by Graves' save total). Don't know how good Miley really is - but the Reds certainly aren't winning on talent - so I gotta give the manager some props.

4) Ned Yost -- 68-94 in first season. (27-27 currently). He took a team with little to no talent and improved 12 games from '02 to '03. And thanks to a wonderful trade (Sexson for the D-back's infield), another 10-game or so improvement looks quite possible. In 2003, the offense was 11th in runs scored and 14th in runs allowed. Currently, they're 12th in runs allowed, and 14th in runs scored. Which begs the question - how can they be .500? Like every team in the Central (except the Astros and Cubs), they're above .500 in 1-run games. Definitely "looks" like a manager making good moves. Too bad he's got no pitching outside of Sheets, Davis and Kolb.

5) Jimy Williams -- 866-746 (.537) entering 2004. Coaching in the AL East is no easy task, (though most have forgotten after his 12-24 start in '89 - and subsequent axing - the Blue Jays actually won the division, DESPITE a 12-game hole, AFTER he was shown the door). This is a man who lands on really talented teams, and drags them DOWN. In 2003, 4th in runs scored, 5th in runs allowed - 2nd in the division. Despite giving up FEWER runs than the Cubs, and scoring considerably more, they finish 2nd to Dusty's team. You have GOT to look at the manager in this case. Jimy FINDS ways to lose.

6) Lloyd Mclendon -- 209-276 (.431) entering 2004. The Pirates pitching ranks right between Cards, Brewers and Reds in runs allowed. The offense is tied for 12th, making Pittsburgh a near carbon copy of Milwaukee. Of course, the Pirates at 24-30, are the ONLY central team below .500 at the moment, and the 13-22 record against Central teams is by FAR the worst internal performance. Last year, the club was 7th in runs scored and 12th in runs allowed. Granted, they lost Brian Giles, Lofton, ARAM, and Sanders. But they've had stellar years from Craig and Jack Wilson, Mackowiak, and when allowed to play: Daryl Ward and Jason Bay. While the talent is lacking, McClendon is even WORSE than Jimy for keeping his best guys riding the pine. Craig Wilson got only 309 at bats last season, and the ONLY reason he's full time this year is because of multiple injuries during spring training.

Jason Bay is the next in a long line of talented youngsters that are forced to ride the pine so he can generate more at bats for Randall Simon. He's got a fixation that walks are a "bad" thing for hitters, or so it seems, as Tike Redman and his .267 OBP continue to play, while Jason Bay plays every other day, if he's lucky. Ward has been on fire this year, but has only 98 at bats. Okay, I can see wanting to give Tike a good shot at developing, but when you're mired in a season-long slump, why not bench him, and put him in "advantaged" at-bats, to try and help restore his confidence?

Given his druthers, McLendon seems to do his best to make sure everyone's bats stay as COLD as possible. Yes, Kendall is the last remaining star, and he's playing well, but you've got a 25-year old catcher in Humberto Cota who could actually use some PT to develop (since everyone on the planet knows that Kendall is on the trading block). Instead, Cota and his .947 OPS have 27 at bats so far.

IMO, the truth about the central is that it owns TWO of the worst managers in baseball in Jimy and Lloyd.

[PissedPrincess]

Baker doesn't do much for me either. His over-use of pitchers is ALARMING. Plus he just seems like an :ass: to me.

I have watched LaRussa blow countless games due to boneheaded managing.

You already know how I feel about Jimy/Grady/Francona. :angry:

Interesting post.

[PopTop]

Jimy FINDS ways to lose.

I think of it more that he doesn't find ways to win, just don't get a positive feeling about the man's ability to think on the fly.

[barzilla]

Sandy,

Good analysis. I think in all fairness I would put Baker above La Russa simply because he has had more consistent success than La Russa. He has overused his pitchers and he makes inane comments, but he seems to overcome that. Yes, Kerry Wood and Mark Prior have been hurt, but I look at guys like Russ Ortiz in Atlanta and he hasn't worn down yet......the key for Williams in 2003 was that he was -7 in the Pythagorean record. If he just breaks even he wins the division by six games. I don't think Jimy actively finds ways to lose games, I just don't think he seems to care in some instances. When you start three or four scrubs in the third game of a series where you have won the first two games you are basically saying "you can have this one" Now, this happens at least five or six times a year. Yes, you can play the whole "it's a marathon and not a sprint" thing only so often before you realize this guy is a moron. You don't have to sacrifice a game to keep a marathon pace. All you have to do is use your substitutes judicially (READ: ONE AT A FRICKIN TIME) and you don't have to sacrifice a game.

[PissedPrincess]

Sandy,

You don't have to sacrifice a game to keep a marathon pace. All you have to do is use your substitutes judicially (READ: ONE AT A FRICKIN TIME) and you don't have to sacrifice a game.

These boys are all on the roster. Gotta play em sometimes. ;) Especially if it can blow a winning streak, or guarantee a must win ends up a loss.

If anyone cares, the Boston Globe is doing a story this Sunday called Jimy still not getting it done.

www.bostonglobe.com

[Sandy]

I could swap LaRussa and Baker, but gave the nod to LaRussa, since he's had success at several different stops (and a longer track record). And while I know Baker has the "rep" for overusing pitchers, I just haven't noticed any real "damage" from his pitcher handling.

Nen is the ONLY guy I can think of that has had a "serious" string of arm troubles under Baker. When looking back thru the records of the pitcher's he's had - especially those that pitched under OTHER managers - I see *ZERO* evidence that he worked these guys harder. Livan put up 230 IPs before AND after San Fran. Russ Ortiz had similar innings in Atlanta. Schmidt had arm problems BEFORE getting to Frisco, and actually seems to suffer no problems with high pitch counts (as evidenced by Alou's handling of him this year).

*My* take on Dusty is that he puts his BEST players in positions to win games, and bases his critical decisions on "heart" and experience over pitch counts and "the book". While some decisions may seem questionable, I think his approach is focused on building confidence in his players. And over a 162 game schedule, I believe the psychological aspects are cumulative.

In batter management, Dusty seems to be the anti-Jimy -- as he seems able to get his bench regular work without "throwing" games on a regular basis. I have seen him go whole hog substituation occasionally, but that's generally been when the team has been slumping, (wake up call - shake things up approach), rather than in the middle of a win streak.

I can't see how you can lay ANY injury to Wood on Baker's shoulders, considering the kid's history. And I don't buy that you develop achilles injuries by throwing too many pitches either. Frankly, compared to Dierker, Baker absolutely coddles his starters. (It's scary how many pitchers were really effective (for awhile) under Dierker, who went on to become absolutely miserable pitchers thereafter).

Overall, I think it's fair to say the Central has three tiers of managers.

Top tier: LaRussa/Baker -- proven winners. You may question their methods, but they've shown the ability to get the job done.

Middle tier: Yost/Milley -- too soon to tell for sure - but they seem to be moving young teams with questionable talent in the right direction.

Bottom tier: Jimy/Mclendon -- Guys who'd be better as as coaches, instead of managers. Both demonstrate an uncanny (unexplainable) propensity to bench productive players for trash. Houston just has better overall talent, which Jimy magically supresses, while the Pirates best players twiddle their thumbs while Mclendon maximizes PT for whoever is producing the least.

[PopTop]

Princess, was that from last Sunday (June 6th) or do you mean it's a column coming up for this Sunday (June 13th)?

[PissedPrincess]

Coming this Sunday Pops. June 13th.

[barzilla]

That should be an interesting read.

[PopTop]

Thanks, Jacqui. And yes, it should be very interesting, even if it is that putz Ryan doing the story.

Ok, back to management ... Let's keep in mind the hierarchy above Jimy that makes a lot of the personnel decisions ... Anyone catch the deal with Quackworth being optioned to Triple-A sometime Wed-Thur (Jun 9-10)? ... Bullinger was called up, which probably brought immediate smiles to the faces of some MLB hitters ... Heck, some of 'em might have even gotten little woodies from the news :eek: ;) Let's hope the New Orleans native makes me eat those words.

But my point here really has nothing to do with Bullinger ... My point is why wasn't Munro signed to take Quackworth's spot in the rotation from the very beginning? :notme: My guess is the answer you will get for that question is something like, "We wanted to give Duckworth one more start." ... Ok, fair enough, if that's the real answer ... I would bet the real story is that Gerry is simply flying by the seat of his pants and not thinking three or four steps ahead, a method that always produces what appear to be willy-nilly moves and actions ... When Munro was signed, even if you wanted to give Duckworth one more start, the logical and best decision to make was to slot Munro as a starter, plain and simple ... And then decide right then and there if you want Bullinger or Duckworth in the pen and make that move right then instead of dragging the whole process over 7-10 days.

What's the line from Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid? Something like, "Morons! I've got morons on my team!" ... Only with the Astros, we've got morons running the team. :angry:

[barzilla]

Pops,

To be perfectly fair we need to point out a few facts before railing against management:

1. As far as management knew at the beginning of the season, they had seven or eight quality starters in the organization (Duckworth, Hernandez, and possibly Buckholz being the outsiders). Who would have guessed that Pettitte would spend significant time on the DL and the other three would all not be big league ready? That being said, the Astros let the Twins sign Munro and then picked him up the first moment he was ready (June 1st). I know you know that, but I want to make sure everyone has the timeline down.

2. We really have no idea as to who is making the call as to who is in the rotation. For all we know, Gerry signed him with the rotation in mind and Jimy overruled him. It could have been a collaborative effort. I agree that the best course of action would have been to send Duckworth down immediately and keep Backe in the bullpen since he had shown something in the first two months. However, he may have thought that he still wanted the long-relief option in the bullpen.

Incidentally, there are some (they write letters to the Comical) that claim we should have never traded Jeriome Robertson because he could have helped us now. My answer to that is sure, maybe he could have helped us now, but that completely ignores the fact that Luke Scott and Willie Tavares are tearing it up in A ball and AA ball. Folks, this organization is pretty devoid of good position players and that will become painfully obvious in the next two or three years. However, getting Tavares gives us a pretty good centerfield prospect. Couple that with Chris Burke, John Buck, Tommy Whiteman (3B), and Todd Self and you aren't that horrible.

The problem is that a once deep rotation is now down to four qualified starters (and some still have their doubts about Redding). It's amazing how many hard questions the team must face every year. Now, I'm hearing that the organization is worried about Miller's lack of velocity. He was thought to be a number one type starter just two years ago and now his future may be in doubt. However, these are just ramblings that have little to do with the direct subject at hand.

My overall point is that the Duckworth vs. Munro thing was mishandled, but let's figure out who was calling that shot (Jimy or Gerry) before we paint both as idiots.

[PopTop]

'Zilla, really nothing in your post that I can disagree with, bottom line being we're not sure who/how/what/why/when all the decisions are being made. In the end, however, the personnel/roster decisions fall to Gerry and how those personnel are utilized is Jimy's responsibility ... Both of 'em screwed up right from the start: When Gerry signed Munro (a good thing), he's got to find out how Jimy is going to use him and make his retro move accordingly ... Gerry's got to have some input in there, and he can't let Jimy get away with some "I want to give Quackworth one more shot" crap! :angry: If the guy is down to his last straw, and you've just signed a player who has been starting and doing well at AAA, and you really need someone to fill in a starting role, it's a no-frickin'-brainer that Munro prepares to assume that starting position ... The next decision is between Gerry and Jimy on who should we keep, Backe or Duckworth, and you return the other player to Triple-A, another no-brainer ... As far as I'm concerned, neither man is really an idiot, but together they still boned this transaction.

I'm not ready to say we made a bad move dealing J-Rob at all, that to me was one of the most logical transactions this club has made in a while ... I predicted the exact trade, J-Rob for Taveras, long before it happened, one of the few times I've made a good prediction in recent seasons so I have to be quick to remind everyone of that every chance I get :D The real puzzler here is also how well Carlos Hernandez is doing even though he's still below his old radar gun numbers ... I really thought Munro was ok last year as the real-long reliever, the guy Jimy called on 1-2 times a week to try and bail a starter out in the 3rd-4th innings ... So despite the slower-than-desired numbers on the radar gun, I'm still surprised in some ways Hernandez wasn't called up with Munro and both Duckworth & Backe demoted right then.

What's your take on the whole Carlos situation? If he can oomph it up to the low 90s, I say try him.

[barzilla]

Pops,

I think we are both agreeing in our own way, so I won't belabor the point. My take on the Carlos situation is that I would agree wholeheartedly if he were throwing in the low 90s, but he isn't doing that based on what I have heard. Right now he is throwing in the mid 80s and his ERA has balooned to over four, so I think AAA is beginning to catch up with him.

Ducky mentioned Freddy Garcia. Personally, I don't necessarily think it would be a bad move if Tim Redding continues to struggle. Personally, I think we should strongly consider this if it doesn't break our back in the minors (Tavares, Buck, and Burke are untouchable). In my mind, Redding and Lane might not make a bad package. I really think we need to take advantage of the 9-0 start by Clemens and the fact that Biggio, Bagwell, and Kent are near the end to make a serious run.