Who is a better player, Ron Santo or Brooks Robinson?

[Baseball Guru]

Interesting poll going on over at Fever and I would love to see what the general opinion is here about this poll...

It is interesting that the members of Fever are so divided on who is the better player yet the Hall has yet to give Santo a call? As of the posting of this poll, the votes are 11-11....

My opinion:

I think Robinson was the better on defense but not by a huge margin over Santo, who won his share of GG's, but I view Santo as much better offensively than Robinson.. All his #'s are better and he played in about 600+ less games....

[PopTop]

James, I've long held that neither one was necessarily "better" than the other and that both were great players and among the very best third sackers to play the game. I don't trust Gold Glove/MVP voting to tell me a whole lot about a player. I did get to see Santo play a lot live and in person, and only saw Robinson a couple of times live and the rest just on TV which wasn't that often 35-45 years ago. I'm quite certain that someone who grew up watching Brooks everyday would tell you that Robinson was a better 3B than Santo just as someone who saw Santo play all the time would say he was better than Brooks. For my money, they were equally solid and were the absolute best third basemen of their era (which pretty much ran concurrent).

So the fact that one of them received a lot of support for the Hall of Fame and the other has not received the same support, well, my opinion is that the inconsistency in that matter is the very epitome of why the BBWAA and the Vet Committee can't and shouldn't be trusted with the job of deciding who is and isn't worthy of enshrinment in Cooperstown.

After Santo was once again passed over by the Veterans Committee this year, I worked up the list below and posted it over at Bleacher Gang.

Below are a few of his more vital baseball statistics. Next to those stats is a "greater than" sign (>) ... and to the right of those stats are a few Hall of Famers who Santo bests in that category. Oh, they also happen to be voters on the present Veterans Committee, too. I didn't check Monte Irvin because of his late start in the big leagues, and to be fair, there are quite a few of the players listed in the Gold Gloves category who didn't have those awards when they played of the awards weren't divided up among NL and AL players.

But the only two players on the present Veterans Committee who top Santo in each of the categories below are Al Kaline and Willie Mays, thought that was interesting. Just don't see how the man can be excluded time and time again.

Ron Santo's career stats...

2243 games > Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Orlando Cepeda, Bobby Doerr, George Kell, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto, Red Schoendienst, Duke Snider

2254 hits > Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Gary Carter, Bobby Doerr, George Kell, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Willie McCovey, Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto, Mike Schmidt, Duke Snider

342 HR > Luis Aparicio, George Brett, Lou Brock, Rod Carew, Gary Carter, Bobby Doerr, George Kell, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Paul Molitor, Joe Morgan, Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto, Brooks Robinson, Red Schoendienst, Ozzie Smith, Robin Yount

1331 RBI > Luis Aparicio, Lou Brock, Rod Carew, Gary Carter, Bobby Doerr, Carlton Fisk, George Kell, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Paul Molitor, Joe Morgan, Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto, Red Schoendienst, Ozzie Smith

1138 Runs > Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Orlando Cepeda, Bobby Doerr, George Kell, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto

AVG .277 > Luis Aparicio, Ernie Banks, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Reggie Jackson, Harmon Killebrew, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Willie McCovey, Joe Morgan, Phil Rizzuto, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Ozzie Smith

OBA .362 > Luis Aparicio, Ernie Banks, Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Lou Brock, Gary Carter, Orlando Cepeda, Carlton Fisk, Reggie Jackson, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Eddie Murray, Tony Perez, Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto, Brooks Robinson, Red Schoendienst, Ozzie Smith, Billy Williams, Dave Winfield, Robin Yount

SLG .464 > Luis Aparicio, Lou Brock, Rod Carew, Gary Carter, Bobby Doerr, Carlton Fisk, George Kell, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Paul Molitor, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez, Phil Rizzuto, Brooks Robinson, Red Schoendienst, Ozzie Smith, Carl Yastrzemski, Robin Yount

9 All-Star Games > Lou Brock, Orlando Cepeda, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Mazeroski, Willie McCovey, Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Tony Perez, Phil Rizzuto, Duke Snider, Billy Williams, Robin Yount

5 Gold Gloves > Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Yogi Berra, George Brett, Lou Brock, Rod Carew, Gary Carter, Orlando Cepeda, Bobby Doerr, Carlton Fisk, Reggie Jackson, George Kell, Harmon Killebrew, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Willie McCovey, Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Stan Musial, Tony Perez, Phil Rizzuto, Frank Robinson, Red Schoendienst, Duke Snider, Billy Williams, Robin Yount

[Teddy Ballgame]

- BG - I am familiar with the site you cite, Baseball Fever, and IMO several of the so called moderators there really suck and should get a life outside of cyberspace so that they will be able to stop taking themselves so seriously and so that they may have more than one outlet for their barely discernible talents and glaring visible egos.

- As to the question of whether Santo or Robinson is the better player, it depends, as old Slime Bucket Billy Clinton might say, on what the meaning of is, is. If you define is as being in the present tense, I would give the nod to Robinson because although he is three years older at age 68, Ron Santo's diabetes has presumably slowed him down rather more at age 65 than has old age lessened the baseball prowess of Robinson today.

- If you refer to their records during their ML careers, I would again give the nod to Brooks "The Human Vacume Cleaner" Robinson over Ron "Pizzza" Santo while also arguing that Santo, too, clearly belongs in the HOF.

- For me, the "Hot Corner" puts the premium on defence and I have never seen the equal of Brooks Robinson at gobbling up everything hit within even the same zip code as 3B and rifling the ball to first base in time to throw out the fleetest AL batters of his time including Mickey Mantle who got down to first in an incredible 2.9 seconds hitting from the left side but was thrown out time and again by Robinson when it counted. Ron was an excellent fielding third baseball, no doubt whatsoever, but he simply wasn't quite there with Robinson on quickness, instincts and rifle arm. This is why while he won an impressive five Gold Gloves in the NL Brooks won an astounding 16 Gold Gloves in the AL, a record achieved by no other fielder at any everyday position (NB: pitcher Jim Kaat also won 16 Gold Gloves).

- In my view, neither .267 hitters (Robinson) or .277 hitters (Santo) should expect to get into the HOF on their batting records. With few exceptions (Mike Schmidt), third basemen are chosen for their fielding skills and so I would certainly pick Robinson before Santo but pick Santo ahead of several other players already in the Hall from 3B, SS and various other positions.

- As well, Santo had a relatively short career as all time ML stars and HOF members go, playing 15 years compared with Robinson's 23 years in the majors. This, I expect, also counted for some votes when the Hall selections were made and Santo was passed over time and again while Brooks was chosen in his first year of eligibility.

- As hitters, Santo gets the clear nod in all categories over Robinson, from batting average to power to production. But hitting didn't make either of these guys stars. Rather, it was their sparkling fielding at the Hot Corner spearing viscious line drives and hard hit, wonky grounders and then throwing out the runners with bullet tosses to first, year after year. So they both should be immortalized at Cooperston but Brooks was the greater of the these two great stars of the 60s and early 70s. His incredible fielding performance in the 1970 World Series for which he won the MVP award is still as vivid in my mind's eye as if it were yesterday.

[Baseball Guru]

Great posts Willie & TB:thumbsup:

TB, I know what you mean about some of the members taking things too seriously there.. I am actually the moderator of the History forum and dont get into too many discussions because it gets too intense sometimes.. I just make sure the rules are followed...

Well, we got a whole 4 members to vote and 3 of them posted in this thread.. Thats the only + over there is that there is sometimes some very good discussion and more-so geared towards baseball..

I love this site and worked hard to get it going and try to keep it up but the lack of baseball discussion sometimes brings me down.

I am thankful that guys like you, Willie, Dale, Bill, Shawn, Shad, Ray and a few others are around to keep up the baseball chatter....

[imgreat95]

I am thankful that guys like you, Willie, Dale, Bill, Shawn, Shad, Ray and a few others are around to keep up the baseball chatter....


I feel bad lately. I feel as though I have not been contributing my fair share of baseball talk. Unfortunately, I have not even had the time to watch any baseball games aside form Pirate games (which I usually watch after they are already over.) haha

[rockin500]

i voted for ronnie. :D I dont really know that there is much difference. Its almost splitting hairs to me. I can only look at stats and such as i have no recollection of the two guys in thier playing career.

[Thedatch]

- BG - I am familiar with the site you cite, Baseball Fever, and IMO several of the so called moderators there really suck and should get a life outside of cyberspace so that they will be able to stop taking themselves so seriously and so that they may have more than one outlet for their barely discernible talents and glaring visible egos.



I don't think i've ever heard, seen, or read such a polite EFF YOU! :laff: props to you teddy ballgame :thumbsup: "barely discernible talents and glaring visible egos" haha

[Teddy Ballgame]

I don't think i've ever heard, seen, or read such a polite EFF YOU! :laff: props to you teddy ballgame :thumbsup: "barely discernible talents and glaring visible egos" haha

- D - Glad you enjoyed my quip on some of the no lifers who moderate the BF forums. (If you look up "anal retentive" in the dictionary, Mattingly's picture is right beside it.)

- I no longer post or even read there. Contrary to what Mattingly and some of BF's other moderators seem to believe, baseball is a game and a business but not a religion and, baseball cannot be extricated or detached from its social context and put on some sort of exhalted and pristinely pure pedestal. Also, baseball is mainly tradition, competition and good fun and attempts to turn it into a pure science with Sabermetrics and other such pseudo-scientific crap is pedantic sophistry.

- Other than that, BF is fine. (Which is like saying "other than hitting that iceberg, the maiden voyage of the Titanic was a lot of fun and a great success".)

CHEERS

[Baseball Guru]

Let me pose another question?

What does everyone think of Ken Boyer?

Very close #'s when comparing the 3 and Boyer was as good as a fielder as Santo...

[Panzram]

Santo

[Toy Cannon]

What does everyone think of Ken Boyer?

Very close #'s when comparing the 3 and Boyer was as good as a fielder as Santo...
This is a tough one James, and you could throw George Kell into the mix if you wanted to go back a decade. Or Craig Nettles if you wanted to go forward a decade.

Between Santo, Brooks and Boyer, I think I lean slightly to the side of Santo. Ever so slightly. Robinson was clearly the better glove man but I remember Boyer as the NL version of the vacum cleaner. I don't think anyone was more clutch than Boyer at the plate but Santo had a little more pop. If Brooks had a better lifetime BA (he only had 3 years above .297) we wouldn't be having this conversation. (If the hapless Cubs had managed to get into a WS or two, Santo would have been in the HOF long ago).

I go with Santo with Brooks and Ken Boyer dead even at second.

[PopTop]

If Brooks had a better lifetime BA (he only had 3 years above .297) we wouldn't be having this conversation. (If the hapless Cubs had managed to get into a WS or two, Santo would have been in the HOF long ago). Very true :thumbsup: Excellent point, Toy.

[Teddy Ballgame]

- I was a real Ken Boyer fan when he played with the Cards and I recall his tragic death at only 51 from cancer. The Boyer brothers were among those rare sets of three brothers to all play major league baseball, along with the Alous and the DiMaggios. Indeed, brother Cletis and Ken became the first and as far as I know the only two brothers to ever homer in the same world series game when they were both with the Cards in 1964.

- For me, the quintessential star of The Hot Corner remains Brooks Robinson because this position is where fielding is primary and Brooks was simply the better fielder than either Santo or Boyer and probably the best fielding thrid baseman of all time. But the comparison between Boyer and Santo is interesting and a lot closer IMO.

- As the stats show, Boyer hit for a little higher average while Santo had a little more pop. Both were Gold Glovers and I recall Boyer as having the stronger arm and Santo as possibly a little quicker and rangier around the bag. They both played 15 years in the majors although Boyer's best years numbered only seven compared with Santo's nine or ten and he was moved around through four teams counting his salad days as a Cardinal.

- I might give the slightest nod to Santo here but really they were as close to equal as two players could be and both well deserving of election to the HOF.

[Baseball Guru]

Actually if you add another season worth of games for Boyer, Santo's power #'s are really not that much better...

Santo played in 209 more games than Boyer and hit 343 hr's and had 1343 rbi's...

Boyer minus those 209 games had 282 hr's and 1141 rbi's..

If you just add 1 season worth of games and took the low average of Boyer, his #'s stack up like this:
305-hr's and 1231 rbi's....

Santo looks to have a big advantage over Boyer because he played in more games....

I agree that I would still give Santo the nod but just giving a little comparison showing that Boyer is even closer to him than you think but does not have as much support (fan) towards the Hall than Santo....

[PopTop]

Boyer would rank below Santo in my memory, for what that's worth, probably because he had a shorter career. But I saw both of them numerous times, and I was always more confident in Santo somehow beating my Astros than Boyer.

Put it this way: If I was in one of those oldtimer sim leagues and was told I was assured of getting Robinson, Santo, even Boyer, I wouldn't feel slighted at all and probably wouldn't feel like anyone else had a better third baseman than me. That's basing it on stats. Basing it on what I saw, what I remember, Santo would get my nod over any of them in that era.

[treasurecoast1]

Let me pose another question?

What does everyone think of Ken Boyer?

Very close #'s when comparing the 3 and Boyer was as good as a fielder as Santo...

1. I think all 3 should be in the HOF (only Robinson is).

2. I have come around to the view that Robinson, while overrated as an active player (he overshadowed Eddie Mathews, a far, far superior player) was better than Santo or Boyer. Santo may have been better at his peak, but Robinson won an MVP award, and deserved it. Robinson retained tremendous defensive value even while his offense declined. Boyer won an MVP award the same year as Brooksie (1964) but Willie Mays was the REAL MVP that year. Robinson's defense and longer career give him a career value edge over Santo and Boyer. (All of the arguments I would make in favor of Santo I would make on behalf of Ken Boyer; it's just that Santo's batting stats are superficially better).

[Durango53]

Well I guess being my name was brought up I should post here.... :D

Tough for me to say. I never had the chance to see these two great baseball players play the game. I like Willie dont trust what the writers vote and so one.

And I might take some heat over this one but I also dont trust what the stats say also when you look at two players most of the time. We are in a age now where the HR is the sexy stat. We look at everything in the eyes of power. How much power does this guy have. This guy is better than this guy because he hit +25 more HR than this other guy.

Me I am a old time guy. When I watch football I still love what wins you championships. Running and defense and it rings true in baseball also. I love great pitching and defense. Huh funny how I like the Rockies then huh? :notme: :D
But I love to watch a game where it is 1-0 where the defense is going all out laying out, diving and digging in because that run might be the only one. I find it sad today how everything past and present is looked at though home runs.

But there is no stat to say who is the better player playing defense. There is always errors but how many of them are the hometown scorer. And the box score dont show me that Santo dove to the left pulled one out of his ass and came up gunning to nail a runner in that breath.

So it comes back to me and I love defense. I never got to see any of these two great players play and my vote would be who was the better at defense and he would get my vote. But I didnt get to see them play so I am sorry but I cant put a check mark in the voting side of this so please just take this post instead.

[treasurecoast1]

Santo came up at 20 and was finished at 34 due to diabetes. Boyer came up at 24, rather late, and was done at 37, playing 25 games at age 38. I wonder if he missed time due to military service in Korea.

In truth, the case for Boyer is the case for Santo. Santo has some obvious advantages, but Boyer won an MVP award, and while he was a questionable pick, he still won one and Santo never did. I rate them very much even; subjectively, I rate Boyer ahead of Santo.

Boyer was a direct contemporary of Eddie Mathews, both born in 1931, both of them ending their careers at about the same time (Mathews in 1968, Boyer after 34 ABs in 1969). Santo was nine years younger. Santo played at a time where he could claim being the best 3B in the league, but Eddie Mathews was the best 3B in the NL during Boyer's best years, for the most part.

Boyer was the ONLY member of this group to win an MVP award; oddly enough, he did it the same year as Brooks Robinson. Boyer probably didn't deserve the award; Mays probably did, but this was a time where writers were not as given over to the idea of players winning the award year after year, so . . .