Commentary

[>TC<]

I am getting so tired of this ...

Twins "fans" (I use that term with reservations) need to quit the belly-aching - Or better yet, since a fair amount of you are band wagon fans anyway, do the rest of us a favor and go follow some other team (then when they struggle move on to another team.) You get all hyped when the team plays well and want to dump all the players and rip on them when they slump. We don't need you and neither does the team.

Facts: The Twins are playing decent ball!

The Twins pitching staff is keeping this team in games. Even though the offense is struggling, there aren't many games that don't hold your interest.

The Twins have won 5 out of the last 7 series.

They've gone 14-7 during that span - a .667 clip. That includes 4-2 against the White Sox and 2-1 against Cleveland.

The Twins might not win the wild card, but they will hang around close enough to make it interesting.

FYI - As far as crowds being down a bit, that is a historical trend that happens every season in September when the kids go back to school. Also, the last week of August and Labor Day weekend is State Fair time in Minnesota. The fair draws over 100,000 people a day and always hurts attendance. Anyone who follows the Twins closely would be aware of these attendance trends.



TC

[Timberwolf]

Sounds like you are happy with the way they have played. That's fine and it's your opinion, Mark. Me? I have high expectations and I have high standards. This team was supposed to go to the World Series and I read a lot of publications including my hometown newspaper, the Star-Ledger about how this is a "World Series" team. Guys like Torii Hunter, Jacque Jones, and several other Twins did lot of talking in the off-season and in spring training about how this team is ready to make a run for the World Series. This organization patted themselves in the back about the way they do business which is fine, but when you got an organization that has proclaimed itself as a World Series contender, then it's perfectly reasonable for fans like me to demand excellence. You got Dick and Bert smugly doing all the talking about how they are a WS contender in spring training. When you hear all that, you better expect something in return. It's one thing to talk, but it's another to walk the walk. You had a chance to read Reusse's column today? He decided to use his Vikings season preview column as an opportunity to go take a shot at the Twins and the Timberwolves. Apparently, I am not the only one who feels that way. Reusse has been railing on the Twins all season especially when he is on Joe Soucheray's show on AM1500. Twins fans have called KFAN bashing the team all season long. Even Sid Hartman thought the Twins were dissapointing and he is never critical of the MN sports teams.

Terry Ryan blamed himself for the team's problems. I felt bad for him when he admitted it. This was not his fault. He thought this team should have done better and he took responsibility. He admitted the team underacheived. He basically made my point. To me, he shouldn't have taken the blame, but he took one for the team. Maybe guys like Justin Morneau should wake up and take some accountability.


You are getting tired of it? You think I have fun ripping this team? You really think so? C'mon! I would love anything better than praise my team every single day like Cardinals fans do or Red Sox fans do or Yankees fans do, but I am also going to call it as I see it. I am a homer, but I don't misle people either thinking it's going to get better. I go by what I feel through watching the games. I was telling a bus driver on Friday night about how it's reasonable for fans to demand excellence when fans pay these player's salaries through watching the games on TV, Internet, and going to the ballgames. Fans should demand it and if they demand it, it's because they love their team. I love the Twins to death and it kills me to see them lose. Heck if kills me when a MN sports team lose. Friday nights when the Timberwolves lose, I normally go to work with an angry attitude last year on Saturday mornings. I had workers and patrons asking me why I am glum and I tell them it's because of the Timberwolves losing. I hate it when MN sports teams lose. It stinks. Even if I was not from the East Coast, I probably would have that attitude when a team lose. It's okay to feel that way. It shows that I care and the fact I love MN sports teams.

Bandwagoning? I don't think it's bandwagoning if someone points out a team's weakness and harps it. If anything, that's call being an educated fan. I have been pointing about the offensive woes since June I think and I have cited concerns about this team in June. If you scroll down, I have been saying in April that this team has to do a lot better on offense because that record won't last forever. Ever since interleague play, the Twins did not recover. A definition of an bandwagon fan is a fan not watching the games and watching the other teams and posting on the other teams board. I have been posting on the Twins board here this entire year even when times were tough. Fans

If you want a great example of bellyaching, go to the Red Sox board. When I read PissedPrincess bemoaning about the Red Sox despite their great record, I just laugh as I am reading. That's an example of bellyaching. Me? At least, I present facts and back em up through observations via the paper or MLB.TV or at Rube Chat. Fans are always going to vent and complain after losses. It's just the mentality of sports fans in America and that's fine. Like I told that bus driver on my way home Friday night, it's okay to demand excellence when the players are making way more than you or I can make

Decent ball? Okay, I agree on that, but please don't tell me how the offense is doing great though they did well today and yesterday. This team made Texas and KC pitching staff look like an elite pitching staff. Both pitching staff have been horrible all year yet the Twins made Texas and KC pitchers look like Cy Young candidates in this trip. This team should have swept KC not take two out of three. It's one thing to lose last Thursday to the White Sox because you gotta give the Sox credit for winning that game, but to lose the series to Texas and then struggle to beat KC, then yeah you got reason to be frustrated. It's great that they won the series against the Indians, but do you really think it will get fans in Minnesota excited. I am happy that they won. I would like to think they are professional enough to play to win in the final month of the year whether they are in it or not.

The pitching staff has been excellent all season. Unfortunately, it won't matter much if they lose 1-0 or 2-0 or 2-1. Brad Radke apparently left the Dome as soon as the game was over Friday night (he did not speak to the reporters after the game Friday) and he cited in the Strib yesterday that he is frustrated about the lack of run support. He is not the only who felt that way. Carlos Silva also let the writers know that he did not like it. Kyle Lohse also complained. That's three guys that complained about the lack of offense. It's not just me. When you got your own pitchers complaining, that's carries weight.

The Twins had home games during the State Fair the last two years and they were drawing reasonably well then. I am pretty sure of that one since I watched an early September game where it was almost a sellout on a Friday last year.

I just wondered if we would have this commentary had the Twins lost yesterday or today. It did not look good Friday night after the way they rolled over. I am glad they won, but I like to think they are professional enough to win the rest of the way. You don't get medals for playing well in September as Tom Kelly would say. It's part of being professional and it's part of their job. If they loss and tanked, that's a bad reflection on them. I am glad they won the series and I hope they keep it up. Still, this season should have turn out better especailly since the Twins self-proclaimed themselves as AL World Series contenders.

[>TC<]

Where did I say the offense was doing great? Didn't happen.

What I said was,

the pitching will keep the team in games.

the team has won 5 out of the last 7 series.

the team is playing at a .667 winning percentage during that span. Any team would take that run.

Those are facts.

As far as attendance goes, it is a fact that the numbers go down in September and during the fair. Dave St. Peter has been talking about it for weeks, how the team needed to draw big crowds against the White Sox and some other teams in August to offset the drop that comes in September.

Actually, I am beginning to think you do enjoy ripping the team. You are certainly more verbose when you are being negative than when you are happy with them. That's too bad.

If you're hanging around Rube Chat, you've now been exposed to the biggest bunch of morons that have ever come together in one place. You could add up everything said there and not come up with enough intelligent comments to complete one paragraph.



TC

[Durango53]

I have to agree with you Mark. This team's win loss is very close to what it was last year isnt it?

Ya sure the hitting isnt doing as good as we would like but just like every year the Twins have put some young guys in a postion to get things done. Michael Cuddyer has started to hit towards the end of the season and is avg is about the same as Corey Koskie has been the past few years. The HR are down but that is something that is happing all around baseball. The fact is that this team is about pitching and that has been so very strong for this team. And with this team doing the same as it has the past few years but with younger players that are still learning is that much better.

You got to give credit to what the White Sox have done this year. Even if they are slumping right now and the Twins are beating them up now they came out of the gate kicking everyones butt doing great and instead of everyone saying how great the White Sox are doing everyone asked where the Twins was. And they have about put up the same numbers as they have in the past. And now as Mark put they are winning seires and that is all you can ask for. How many teams sweep week in and out? And how many are sweeped?

Justin Morneau came in with some huge shoes to fill already and from who? It was the sports writers that was drooling all over him and all Twins fans was also. But two things he is a very young guy that still has to learn the MLB game. Pitchers have learned to pitch him and now he has to learn how to adjust against that and that only comes with time. Add the fact that he came in to camp sick and hurting. And knowing what a season does to a body didnt think he would ever have his full strength back this season and I posted that also. It is so tough to get back to 100% after what he went though then add the fact that he has to get ready for a full season and play I still dont think he his 100% and just is wore down.

But a + side to all this is they are winning now without Hunter and that is only going to help this team down the road. They will learn that they can play without him and win without him and it will only help when he does come back and I hope he feels that he wont have to carry the team and the team can feel they can do there part.

You got to look at the full thing going on not just what sports writers put up. Plus I dont hardly take what they say anyway. Tell me how many of them stood in with a fast ball coming in or a curve ball that looks like it is coming to your head just to drop in for a high strike. Mark knows what it is like still swinging.

[Timberwolf]

Mark: I don't enjoy ripping the Twins or any other MN sports team for that matter. It pains me to no end when a MN Sports team lose. If I rip or savage them, it's because I love them and that it pains me to see them lose. I gotta vent. Isn't that what a message board is all about? A place to vent. Personally, it would be worse if I did not care when they lose. You think this season has been fun for me? You really think so? C'mon, Mark. I think it's uncalled for and unfair that you would go rip into my integrity by saying that I am having fun ripping this team. That is not the case. When the Twins were winning the last two weeks, I went into a long silloquy about the Twins playing with heart. Why don't you go ask rockin500, awfulspellare, riverdunesrat (he is at the Padres board), Jodi2231, RockinRobin, and realm if I enjoy ripping the Twins? Those four posters I mention think I am over-the-top when it comes to homerism for the Twins at Strike3Forums.com and at the old www.themlbforum.com board. I write long when they lose and they win. Go ask Mike Vaccaro of the New York Post and Jim Souhan if I am verbose when the Twins win. They will tell you the same thing about how I love talking about the Twins when things are great. The only time I enjoy ripping a team is when I rip NY sports teams. I am guilty as charged on ripping NY teams in which I take enjoyment, but ripping MN sports teams is something I don't enjoy. I am really dissapointed with you that you really feel this way about me enjoying ripping this team. You know me a lot better than that.

As far as Rube Chat goes, the Vikings fans at that board are idiots, but the Twins board is where the most passionate Twins fans also post. I happen to know some of these guys since I talk to them via email and all. They are feeling the same way I am feeling. I used to post at Strike3Forums.com and I currently post at MNSportsCentral.com. Lot of fans are ripping the Twins at both boards. The Strib board does the same. I don't see how those three boards are any different than Rube Chat. Besides when I think of Rube Chat, I think of passionate fans. I can tell who is smart and who is stupid at that board. I agree with you on the Vikings board at Rube Chat, but the Twins board and Timberwolves board at Rube Chat are not that bad.

If you read the Strib and the Pioneer Press tommorow, you will read Carlos Silva just tearing his own teammates after the game today in which the Twins put on an embrassing display against the Rangers at the Dome. He questioned his own teammates intensity and willingess to win. Doesn't that speak volumes? He is not doing this because he enjoys ripping the team. He has been feeling this way the entire season, but he kept his mouth shut. He is saying what I have been saying this year. Today, he could not take it anymore. You know what? Good for him. I was very proud of him for calling his teammates out. I don't care if it causes clubhouse dissension. I really don't. I think it's great. If some people can't handle the truth, maybe they should leave. Carlos Silva has earned the right to go speak his mind. He has done great in his two years in Minnesota and the way he has pitched, he is right on in ripping his team. I thought it was refreshing. I am glad he spoke out because it shows that he cares and he cares what the fans think. He is not insulting anyone's intelligence. It's about time someone on the team told it like it is.

Here is the quote from Carlos:

"It is hard to get a loss like this," Silva said. "The only thing I know, man, is that every time I go out there, I give 100 percent because I like to win and I hate to lose. It looks like a lot of guys in here don't want to play the game the right way. ... I want to see the team that I saw last year. We played hard. Always dive for everything."

There is lot more in this site:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/5597904.html

Shad: At this time last year, Twins would be at their 80s right now in wins. They have 72 wins heading to Tuesday's game.

As for Cuddyer, he is slumping AGAIN. Just how much more slumps can the fans and coaching staff take? He is lucky that he is even playing because Glenn Williams got hurt in Arizona. He and Lecroy need to go the minute this season is over. As for Justin, look, he was going to grow through growing pains. I get that, but this guy is hitting worse than Mientkiewicz. He is now a rally-killer like Lecroy. His bat speed is horrible. He looks like he hurts his groin when he is running. He looks overwhelmed. I wouldn't mind him being benched for awhile. He looks he is lost in the wilderness out there and it is showing. I didn't expect him to him 50 HRs this year, but is it too much to ask to get base hits. I am talking singles. You can talk about him getting sick or getting hit in the head for so long. At some point, he has to learn how to recover from those. Torii and Ron Gardenhire called Justin out for lack of toughness in Arizona when the Twins played the D-Backs for the three-game set in June. Next year gets interesting for Justin. If he does not do well, the comparisions to Dave McCarty and Scott Sthoviak will come in earnest. It probably is now.

Yes, the White Sox have done great. Still, don't you think that they were good enough to win the Wild Card. I mean they were a chic pick to win the World Series with that pitching. I definitely thought that they had the pieces. I thought a full year of Morneau and Mauer would help this team. Michael Cuddyer was supposed to have his breakout year based on what he did in the ALDS in which he was the Twins best hitter. At least, Mauer was healthy. Too bad some guys did not do their job.

Twins did okay without Torii. They did okay with Torii being healthy. This team wasn't going to do much even when Torii was healthy. BTW, it would be useless for Torii to even come back now. Let him get ready for next year. That's if he is going to be on the team next year.

As far as sportswriters goes, I think Reusse, Souhan, Powers, Lavelle E. Neal, and Gordon Wittemeyer does a great job covering the Twins. What they present are facts. I don't go by to what they write. I write from what I feel from the gut and hope those guys agree with what I wrote whether it's good or bad. Apparently, they agree with me. They go with what they observe and they do their job as writers. Speaking of writers taking BP, three years ago, Tom Powers of the Pioneer Press took BP and let's just say that Powers is better off at his current job.

[>TC<]

Silva is an embarrassment to the Twins. You don't go to the press with this type of criticism, you have a clubhouse meeting, behind closed doors. The way he did it is chickenshit. If I'd been a teammate of his, I'd have gotten in his face the same way Matt Birk did to Randy Moss last season, and if he backtalked me at all, I'd lay his ass out on the floor.

I had been a Silva fan, but if I don't hear an apology to his teammates for airing this in the press, he will never be anything more than a bush-leaguer to me from here on.

As far as you enjoying ripping the Twins, that's what I'm seeing. A month ago, you said you'd given up on them and they should dismantle the team. Then they go on a run and you give them some credit, but jump all over them when they lose a game to KC. And this after winning 5 out of 7 series, playing .667 ball. Just what do you want from these guys? They win 2 out of every 3 games for 7 series and you still rip on them. That calls for optimism, not negative talk.

The sports writters you mentioned are, to a point, reporting facts, but every column is tainted by their opinion. That's okay because it's their job to get people talking. Even with their criticism fo the team, I don't see them calling for cutting or trading every player on the roster. They are all saying that the Twins need to add a couple professional hitters. Souhan had a great column talking about that very fact. With the pitching this team has, if they add a couple hitters, they will be competative again.

FYI - here is an interesting tidbit. Three of the four lowest attendance series of the season have been against the Cleveland Indians. So it wasn't only the State Fair and September that led to smaller crowds last weekend.


TC



TC

[Timberwolf]

Mark: Carlos is human. It's okay to be frustrated and speak your mind. It's a heckuva of a lot better than saying all is well and lying to the paying, hard-working Minnesota sporting public. The guy is a competitor. The guy works his tail off. I would love to see players share in the fans frustration. If he does not have guys not play behind him on defense and offense, he has every right to feel that way. Is it right? Probably not, but you know what. He is human. Anyone would have done the same thing. It's not just him that was frustrated. You had Radke thinking suicidal (not literally) and you had Lohse calling out the offense too. This has gone on all season where pitchers have held their toungue. Carlos could not take it anymore so he felt he had to speak from the heart. That's okay. I want players to be ticked off when it has gone ugly. Could he have handle himself better? Sure, but this guy has been patient for so long. Something had to give. When teams are losing, you are going to see that type of stuff happen. Plus this was heat of a moment thing. He was coming off a frustrating performance. He wasn't thinking. We all do stupid things on the heat of the moment hence why I mentioned he is human. Stuff happens. This season has been frustrating and now you are seeing it spill over with Brad and Carlos.

I am sure Carlos will apologize to his teammates and he has to if he wants to continue to succeed in his time with the Twins, but I like to think his outburst woke some people up because it's about time. I look at this as a motivation for guys like Justin Morneau and Michael Cuddyer. It's not like we are talking Gary Sheffield, who just loves to rip his teammates even when they are playing great.

Twins should have swept the Royals last week. They struggled to beat KC hence why I called them out. Great teams don't struggle for wins against the Royals. Did you saw me rip the Twins last week after a frustrating loss to the White Sox at the Dome? Definitely not. I even said that as frustrating as that was, they gotta forget about it and take care of business against Texas and KC. Had they done that, I wouldn't go rip on the Twins. I was actually encouraging them after a tough loss to the White Sox. Rangers were laying down before the Twins came to Arlington. Texas players have cited frustration with the manager and the front office. That team was unraveling. Twins should have swallow the Rangers up that weekend. Friday's loss was brutal too.

The key word is IF they add couple of hitters. It's a necessity this season. Carl needs to spend money to get that big bat. Getting Bill Mueller is a must.

Reusse actually called Morneau out several times this season. I will look into his archives when I come home from work and see who else he wants out. I am pretty sure that he did called out several other people.

[>TC<]

What Reusse said about Morneau is that he should still be at AAA, learning how to hit and take good at bats. He has never, ever said that they should dump him.

There is no excuse for what Silva did, none. You have to have more respect for your teammates than that. It was bush-league, pure and simple.

You won't hear that positon players rip Nathan for blowing the save tonight, they'll say that you win or lose as a team.

You might get your wish on dumping all the players. Word is that if Carl doesn't get his stadium, he will trade everyone of value and run the team with a $25 million payroll, and all young guys, from now on. 2006 could be the last year of a $60 million payroll.


TC

[Timberwolf]

Position players should be in no position to rip any of the pitchers sans J.C. and Kyle, Mark. I know I won't rip Joe Nathan either tonight. He has done such a great job. That happens. The bottom line is that these losses are just snowballing right now and it has effected the pitchers. These pitchers are trying so hard that it has taken a toll of them.

There is no excuse for what Carlos did, but again that is going to happen when a team is losing and wiltering under high expectations. He spoke out of frustration. I liken to Carlos episode on yesterday to me spilling coffee on the floor by accident. It happens. He apologized to his teammates BTW according to Wednesday's Strib. I only wish Kevin Garnett would be as vocal as Carlos Silva with the Timberwolves this past season.

As for the stadium, I am convinced the Twins will play at the Dome when I am 50 years old. That's if the Twins are in Minnesota by then. It amazes me that the state government have no interest in letting Carl get that stadium considering he is footing the bill.

I wouldn't be that sad if Jacque, Torii, and even Shannon were gone. I rather start all over again. Build around Mauer and the pitchers at this point. Twins went as far as they could with this group. While they made the franchise respectable again, they haven't won a championship either.

[>TC<]

Why not? The lineup did the job tonight, it was the pitching that blew it. I don't understand your double standard. Nathan has given up runs in three straight outings, why aren't you calling for his head? That's the problem when a teammate like Carlos starts spewing garbage. I'm glad to hear he apologized to the team, at least he isn't a total idiot.

You obviously weren't around during the 90's when the Twins were in the same boat as the Royals are now. That's what we're looking at in the future.

We're not talking about building a new contender with young players here. Mauer will be gone after 2006 if Pohlad cuts payroll. He will trade him rather than tender him arbitration. Same with any of the players who are going to command big dollars. Rumor has it that the first player Carl will order traded will be Johan Santana and his big contract. Torii and Shannon will be let go as FAs or traded for minor leaguers. It will also be a return to the days when we didn't sign any of our draft choices because we wouldn't pay the market rate. The farm system will run down in just a couple years.

As far as the stadium goes, Pohlad is putting up $150 million for a $450 million stadium. That's not footing the bill (but it is the best he has offered so far). And he will only give that amount if he gets to keep the naming rights. If he was putting up half the money, he'd probably get his stadium.


TC

[Eva]

I wished I got into this conversation much earlier. :ugh:

This team's win loss is very close to what it was last year isnt it?
The current team is 72-66 and last year team finished with 92-70 record. They are not that far off pace from their record from last year. So, the Twins are not as bad as some people made them out to be. Just happen they are being bashed so much, because they far behide in the Central and Wild Card. While in truth they are having a pretty solid season as team despite all the problems that have come up.

Michael Cuddyer was supposed to have his breakout year based on what he did in the ALDS in which he was the Twins best hitter.
You base this on four games? :ugh:

Sorry, but how can you base Cuddyer going to have a breakout year, because he looked great in one series? People seem to overestimate based on what players that do extremely well in a short series do in a short series.

Remember, just like teams, players will get hot, then cool down. ;)

Twins should have swept the Royals last week. They struggled to beat KC hence why I called them out. Great teams don't struggle for wins against the Royals.
I guess the Red Sox and Yankees suck since they lost a series to the Royals. Great logic there. :thumbsup:

Team are not going to win every game. They will even lose games against bad teams on occassion. Losing 1, 2 or 3 games against the Royals won't kill a team. Remember, there is 162 games in a season.

I wouldn't be that sad if Jacque, Torii, and even Shannon were gone. I rather start all over again. Build around Mauer and the pitchers at this point. Twins went as far as they could with this group. While they made the franchise respectable again, they haven't won a championship either.
They don't win the division or don't go to playoff this year, so you want to start over? That's kinda of a weird logic to me... :hmm:

Sorry about jumping in this discussion so late. :tongue:

[Timberwolf]

Big difference, Mark. Joe Nathan has done a very good job last year and this year. He gets the job done 98% of the time. He gets lot of rope from me because he gets it done 9 out of 10 times. I think this is just a case where he is pressing out there. This loss stinks, but I can't fault Joe here. It happens. Now if Joe was all of sudden blowing saves twice a week or once every two weeks, then yeah I would call him out. He is very reliable. I just think he has a dead arm right now. I believe he blew a save Saturday night against the Indians.

The Twins had the right plan in the 90s. Unfortunately, the pitchers just did not get it done and the hitters were way overmatched in the majors. If Klingenbeck, Rodriguez, Mahomes, Guardado, Robertson, and Hawkins pitched to their potential, the Twins would not have been the worse team in the division back then. Terry Ryan had a sound plan going, but these guys were just overmatched.

I can't see Mauer and Johan being gone. I think Carl would sell the franchise first and for him to get a buyer whether that buyer buys the team or moves the team, I think the buyer would want Johan and Joe Mauer to be on the team. I would think Carlos Silva would be the first guy out the door especially since he is due to get a big raise eventually.

I was under the impression by Sid and Charley that it was Carl that would foot the bill. Even Carl admitted that it was him that is paying it all and how it's a great deal. He talked about him sacrificing.

[Timberwolf]

Eva: The way things are going, they would be hard-pressed to win 90 games. I am thinking 76-84 wins at best right now. As for Michael, he played well the final two weeks of the season last year hence why he took the job from Luis Rivas. Yankees lost the series to KC since the Royals were playing their first three games for new manager, Buddy Bell and Red Sox pitching were struggling at the time. As for breaking up the team, I just think the Twins went as far as they could with this guy. Then again, I always say break up the team when a team underacheive. When the NHL's Devils lost to the Avs in 2001 in a tough Game 7 loss in the Stanley Cup Finals, I said break the team for good.

[Eva]

Playing with a new manager does not mean you'll win games... No offense, but that was a pretty weak excuse for why the Yankees lost the series to Kansas City Royals.

Red Sox pitching has been struggling most of the season. :thumbsup:

Point is, teams will lose to bad teams. No excuses, it's just teams will lose to them, since you can't always be perfect. Twins, White Sox, Yankees, Red Sox and all other good teams will probably lose a few times against bad teams.

Sure, maybe they should have won with all the hits they had. Just another excuse. In the end, they won the series. So, there was no reason to call a team out based on one game where they failed to excute and score runs with so many hits. If you want to call a team out, then call one having a record like the Yankees and have 4-10 records against the Devil Rays. :hmm:

[Timberwolf]

Royals had that adrenaline in which they were playing for Buddy Bell for the very first time when the Yankees came to town. There was that energy right there not to mention those guys wanted to make an impression to their new boss. Royals fed off that emotion at the time.

Red Sox pitching will do well when it counts.

Look I know it's hard to sweep, but there are games at this time of the year where the Twins needed the sweep. KC was a wounded animal last week. Twins had to pounce there.

Devil Rays have played well against NY. You gotta give the Rays credit. Anytime you can dominate the Yankees, you must be doing something right. I notice something. The Rays don't seem scared of NY. Twins could take notes on that, don't you think, Eva.

[>TC<]

Welcome to the discussion, Evangelion. Better late than never. You make some good points.

FACT - Under the agreement the Twins will contribute $125 million and they will be responsible for any construction cost overruns. The Twins have also agreed to contribute over a half a million dollars a year toward capital improvements for the stadium.

The county will contribute over $300 million for construction and for land acquisition and infrastructure costs. The board is seeking authority from the state of Minnesota to raise those funds through a sales tax increase that amounts to three cents on every $20 purchase.

The proposal virtually gives the stadium to the Twins. Because the proposal allows the Twins to capture all of the important revenue: naming rights, seat license fees, concession contracts; advertising. Everything goes to the team.

Maybe this is a good example of why you shouldn't take the word of every writer as gospel. Of course Carl is whining about how much he is putting in, he didn't get to be a billionare being generous with his money.


As far as player dumping, check the history of the 90's. Every time a player passed a certain payroll threshhold, they were gone. He kept one high priced player, Puckett. That means he may keep Mauer or Santana, but not both. If the payroll is $25 million, you can't give $20 million to two players.

I went back to August 1 - the Twins are playing .600 ball since then. AND, as I've said before, they have actually picked up the pace as the month went on to play .667 ball in the last 7 series. This team very well might be over achieving, considering how bad you say they are.


TC

[Eva]

Royals had that adrenaline in which they were playing for Buddy Bell for the very first time when the Yankees came to town. There was that energy right there not to mention those guys wanted to make an impression to their new boss. Royals fed off that emotion at the time.
Unless you were there, you really don't know that. You are just speculating. Regardless, it's still another excuse. Simple fact is that a good team that should have won that series did not and end up getting sweep by a bad team.

Look I know it's hard to sweep, but there are games at this time of the year where the Twins needed the sweep. KC was a wounded animal last week. Twins had to pounce there.
I can see you're angry if they lost the series, but the end up winning the series still. At this time of the year, you want to win series. That's most important. Every team ideal is to sweep, but that's not realistic to sweep every series. A realistic goal is winning every series, which the Twins have been doing quite a bit of lately, not counting this series against the Rangers.

Devil Rays have played well against NY. You gotta give the Rays credit. Anytime you can dominate the Yankees, you must be doing something right. I notice something. The Rays don't seem scared of NY. Twins could take notes on that, don't you think, Eva.
Never said I did not give the Devil Rays for beating the Yankees. Like the general opinion, teams with good record should defeat a team with a very bad record. Twins are playing fine against their last place division team, the Yankee should take notes on that. :thumbsup:

I went back to August 1 - the Twins are playing .600 ball since then. AND, as I've said before, they have actually picked up the pace as the month went on to play .667 ball in the last 7 series. This team very well might be over achieving, considering how bad you say they are.
I wonder why people are calling them out when they're playing 600. since August 1? :laff:

Guess it's not good enough since they're not on top of the Central or Wild Card. We should blame Oakland slow start as the main reason why they didn't make the playoffs, if they don't make the playoff... :confused:

[imgreat95]

i feel like this is a thread to see who can type the most. Almost afraid to take part...

I would take the .667 ball and run with it. Dont co mplain about that.

[>TC<]

That's exactly the point I have been trying to make. This team isn't playing bad right now. They don't deserve to be ripped on over and over.

There certainly shouldn't be talk of dumping all the players and starting over. This team needs a couple players to get back to the top of the division. The focus should be on what the Twins need to do to get there, and who they might be able to get during the offseason.

The team, obviously, hasn't given up on itself, so the fans shouldn't either.


TC

[Durango53]

The team, obviously, hasn't given up on itself, so the fans shouldn't either.


TC


That is the main point of the whole thing of being a fan.....

[Timberwolf]

Shawn: A .667 baseball is great, but the team had high expectations in winning it all. You had players in spring training and off-season talking World Series. You had Gammons picking them to win it all based on that so-called offense and you had Stark comparing the Twins to the Patriots. I for one thought this team had the pieces to be really good. For whatever reason, some guys (Justin Morneau) did not get it done. Had they were on pace to win 95 games yet fell short, I would be okay with that. Right now, this team may be struggling to finish the year at .500 especially with the Indians and White Sox coming up next. Besides if fans and players should be happy at .667, then why are there finger-pointing all over the Twins clubhouse. You had Radke calling the offense out on Saturday and basically season. You had Carlos Silva finger-pointing his entire team Monday. Last night after the game, Kyle Lohse ripped his own team for not playing behind him and then blaming Gardenhire. There ain't no Kumbaya at the clubhouse right now though there was a sense of relief after today's thriller.

Shad: It's one thing if fans give up, but it's another if the players and coaching staff gives up. Fans are fans. They are influenced after each game and their emotions are driven by each pitch, each inning, and each game. That's natural especially if you are betting on sporting events. It's different for players and coaching staff. It's their livelihood. It's their job to lead. Those folks are leaders. Leaders are supposed to pave the way or get out of the way. It's an indictment on those guys if they gave up. If they gave up, then they are just not only inept at their jobs, but they are also leaderless and don't have the characteristic of being successful. I know Gardenhire is doing his part in having his guy play and I know he can flat-out lead as I notice him prodding and encouraging the guys on in last night's Rangers/Twins game. In a way, the team is above .500 is a credit to the pitchers and Gardy's leadership.

Mark: I hope the Twins get guys like Mueller or some other prominent player, but that's a big if. There is no gurantee that these guys would want to play in Minnesota. Jacque is probably out the door so they are going to have to replace him. Who knows what Jason Kubel will do? Besides the Braves dump players since Ted Turner sold the team to AOL/Time Warner yet they are in first place. If it works for them, why can't it work for the Twins. Twins have the right men to lead in Gardenhire, Ryan, and Rick Anderson. I watch the Braves at times and I notice something. That team have a spunk in them. Guys like Franceour, Marcus Giles, Joey Devine, and others bring that spunk and energy. I am sure the Twins players in Rochester can do the same. Why not? The difference between the Braves and the Twins this year is based on attitude. Atlanta seems like a go-getter team while the Twins just seem stuck in the mud at times.

Eva: I did not have to be in the Royals dugout to realize that this team wanted to be go-getters in Buddy Bell's very first game. It's natural reaction. When a new boss makes his or her debut, you sure want to make an impression. If you are making your debut at your job, you want to make an impression. That's what the Royals were doing against NY at KC. Making an impression for their new boss. As for the Twins series with KC last week, they had to sweep them. They needed to get 4 Ws on that road trip (Texas/KC). Had they swept KC, they would have gotten 4 Ws and all would have been fine. Heck if they took a series against the Rangers, who has owned the Twins this season, at Arlington, then maybe I don't get upset at the KC series. Twins needed to get that sweep badly at KC. White Sox don't seem to have trouble against the Royals as they are just beating the crap out of them again.

[imgreat95]

timber... you ever consider the fact that very often preseason predicitons and hype are just that and that m ost teams never even co me close to living up to that? This Twins team has played well.. but who in their wildest dreams wouyld have thought that the Sox would have such a good record?? Its not so much that they are playing poorly, but that the Sox got out to such a huge lead, that it has become almost impossible to overcome.

[Timberwolf]

Well I wasn't going by preseason picks, Shawn. I was going by instinct and gut feeling. I felt pretty good about this team last year and the way they played the Yankees in the ALDS last year, I felt they were on the cusp. Apparently, most writers felt that way too.

I felt a full year of Morneau and Mauer could lead them to the top. I felt Bartlett was ready to win the Rookie of the Year. I thought Cuddyer would do well based on his playoff series and the last two weeks of last year. I felt Torii Hunter would contend for the MVP award this year. I just felt the offense would propel to new heights. It just didn't happen. Morneau flopped. Bartlett struggled. Cuddyer has been horrible. Torii is Torii who will just hit for average. Had those guys did their job, the Twins could have won the Wild Card. Yeah Chicago has suprised everyone, but I thought this team was good enough to win the Wild Card at best. Remember they led the Wild Card, the first three months. Things fell apart for good in that Detroit/NY/Boston road trip at the end of July.

[>TC<]

The numbers don't back up your statements. The Twins record isn't that different than the Sox in many areas.

The White Sox - 39-13 vs. Central , 15-19 vs. the West, and 20-13 vs. the East.

The Twins are 31-24 vs. the Central, 15-20 vs. the West, and 18-12 vs. the East,

Cleveland are 27-30 vs. the Central, 17-13 vs. the West, and 18-15 vs. the East.

So far vs. KC - the Twins are 11-4 - the Sox are 11-2, Cleveland is 7-5
vs. Tex - the Twins are 3-6 and the Sox are 3-6
vs. Cleveland - the Twins are 9-7 and the Sox are 10-3
The big difference if vs. Detroit, the Twins are 6-7 and the Sox are 12-3

The Twins are 5-6 vs the Sox, and 9-7 vs. Cleveland. The Sox have only lost 13 games to the Central and we've won five, the other three teams in the division have only won 7 combined.


You are missing the point of the 90's Twins program, they stopped signing draft picks. That's why the team went in the tank. The organization only signed 2 #1 picks during the whole decade. If the payroll gets cut, the farm system will get cut. There won't be any Mauers to bring up.

TC

[Timberwolf]

Actually, Twins are 7-8 against the White Sox. Still, those were great stats and all.

As for the draft picks, I got the impression that Travis Lee and Jason Vartiek wanted no part of being with the Twins in the draft. Similiar to Mark Prior.

[>TC<]

It's always about money. They didn't want the Twins because they knew they could get the $$ they wanted. Lee got $10 million from Arizona, Prior $10 million from the Cubs. Vartiek wanted more than the Twins would give so he went back to school.

That was the story of the 90's for the Twins. They always took a player they could sign for cheap money, even though that player would have been a mid round pick for most other teams. I can't tell you how many players they passed on because of signability issues. I'd hate to see that happen again.


TC

[Timberwolf]

Don't you think this is a baseball problem though? It's not just the Twins who have these problems. Lot of small market teams have this problem. I believe the Royals are having a hard time signing their top pick from this year's draft. Devil Rays could not draft Mark Texiera because he and his agent wanted to go a team that would pay him more money. MLB is going to have to do something where top-flight players in the draft are signing with the big-market teams since they would get the most money.

[>TC<]

Agreed. But the Twins have put money into signing their top picks in the last 5 or 6 years. They don't draft Boros clients, but they certainly aren't alone in that strategy.


TC

[rockin500]

I'm still chuckling that the twins should ever have been considered a WS caliber team. based on what? that ever so potent offense? They were a bad offensive club coming into the year. they are still a bad offensive club today.

and for pitching, you have Johan Santana and who else as starters? none of the others are really top of the line guys. If you have a bad offense, you need at least two or three shutdown guys. the twins have one.

[Durango53]

The pitching is one of the best in the league Ray.

Silva is who some people think should be the CY Young talk over Santana. He has had a great season with no run support. Radke will always give you the solid innings.

[rockin500]

The pitching is one of the best in the league Ray.

Silva is who some people think should be the CY Young talk over Santana. He has had a great season with no run support. Radke will always give you the solid innings.
ok, my mistake. they have two very good pitchers plus your good bullpen. but unless you have Pedro, Koufax, Mathewson, Clemens, and Walter Johnson in their prime as your starting five, you arent going to win with that offense.

[Durango53]

Ray I am going to take out Pedro and put in Ruth as a pitcher so he can hit for himself so they could get a run more a game. :D

[rockin500]

:laff: that may indeed help!

[Timberwolf]

Rockin: When I wrote a thread in the Twins season preview at this board when the season started, I talked about how this team would be a World Series team. You even agreed with me in that thread that I wrote. I will tell the same thing that I told Shawn. I thought the offense would do well with a full year of Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, and etc. Mauer did fine, but Morneau, Cuddyer, and Bartlett fizzled this season. The offense was just dissapointing all season. Gammon, Starks, myself, and most Twins fans thought the Twins would do well based on the offense. It just never happened this year. As for the old-timers you mentioned, I doubt that they can be that great with our punch-n-judy offense.

Keep in mind, Morneau was the big reason why the Twins got hot in the second-half last year when he was hitting HRs.