Could a fire sale be brewing this off-season?

[Timberwolf]

I had a chance to check out the Strib web site as I look for the next day's headlings before midnight eastern. I notice in that headline that there was a rumor about Torii possibly being gone this off-season as he is selling his apartment in Golden Valley. Would it suprise me if he was gone this off-season? Definitely not. Especially when you look at the fact that lot of our core players are going to be getting raises especially Carlos Silva, Joe Nathan, and then Baker and Liriano in the next two years. Joe Mauer is going to be a FA soon so he must be kept. Do the math and you have to figure that lot of guys are on their last years. This could be the last time we saw Shannon, Torii, Jacque (he is definitely gone), and maybe Brad Radke. Could be more as far as I am concerned. I could see Morneau be out of town too.

It's pretty obvious that Carl is not going to spend money to get a bonafide FA and he probably feels his team is not going to win the division next season so he may think if his team stink with the current guys, then his team can stink with new guys.

Would dumping the current guys be a bad idea? I for one don't think so. You can always get something good for those guys. Terry Ryan is smart enough to get something good in return. He has proven that last offseason and he can do it now. Besides Torii Hunter is no Kirby Puckett. He is not untouchable. Sure he has done good things as Souhan cited, but Nick Punto did some good things too. Also, Torii has made it publically clear on many occasions that he will likely test the FA market. Twins owe it to themselves to get something in return. Besides I don't think it would be good for the kids to listen to Torii's whining about how this organization is not committed to winning.

Trevor Plouffe, Denard Span, Matt Moses, Garrett Jones, and other kids must be here next year. It's a necessity. So what if they stink. Let them learn. They got nothing to lose. There are no expectations next season and I think it will help them. I think guys like Bartlett and Morneau were too overwhelmed with the pennant race. They can relax too. I don't want to hear how the Twins would set themselves for failure. That type of talk sets the players to go out and fail. The A's traded Hudson and Mulder and they played all their kids. Guess what? They have a chance to go to the playoffs. Atlanta dumps everyone every year. Guess what? They are heading to the playoffs. Indians have that fire sale three years ago and now they are on the verge of making the playoffs. This idea that bringing the kids to the big club would not make the team competitive is nonsense. Oakland dumped everyone and look at them.

So what if they don't make the playoffs. Isn't the object of the game is to either win or be entertaining? Twins haven't done either this year. I like to see an entertaining ballclub. A team that will play hard. I just feel Moses, Jones, Span, and others can do that even if they struggle next season. I am tired of watching Castro, Ford, Cuddyer, and the rest of the stiffs here.

I want new faces and new blood here next season. I am guessing Mr. Pholad feels the same way too.


http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/5617772.html

[imgreat95]

didnt read the whole thing... but players can not become free agents until they have accrued 7 years of service time. I think Mauer has a ways to go til he is a free agent.

[>TC<]

Same song, different day - it's been covered before

Refer to :Commentary
http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/showthread.php?t=53892

Those kids who haven't played above High A ball would be so overmatched at the major league level that they likely would never recover. To put them in that position is ridiculous, and Ryan would never do it and risk destrying his top prospects. Check the A's young players, they've all played at AAA and AA, same with the Braves.


TC

[>TC<]

"Sometimes it works and sometimes you struggle," Ryan said. "Last year, everything seemed to fit. This year we've struggled. We're having a tough year, because things have not quite fallen into place like I anticipated."

Whether he can significantly improve the lineup this winter could have a lot to say about whether the Twins' window of playoff opportunity with the current core of players (i.e., pitchers) will remain open for a few more years or slam shut until the next wave of prospects comes through.

"Our ownership remains under the belief we have the nucleus of players to compete for a division title and postseason play," St. Peter said. "We don't think we're that far away. Certainly we have work to do, but we have work to do every year.

"There's a desire here to win, and we're intent on putting ourselves back in a position to do so."

Between the positive signals from above and the expected departures of $14.65 million in 2005 contracts belonging to Joe Mays ($7.25 million), Jacque Jones ($5 million) and Kyle Lohse ($2.4 million), Ryan might have enough room to work without the dollars trumping the sense.

TC

[Timberwolf]

Mauer is eligible for salary arbitration, Shawn. If Pohlad does not get that stadium or that special session being called at St. Paul, odds are you will see lot of salary dump as TC told you.

Yeah the kids from A ball are going to struggle, but can they be worse than the garbage we saw this year. Do we and the fans who pay their hard-earned money want to see this same ol' garbage watching Castro, Lecroy, Cuddyer, Punto, and other players who can't play? Do we? I sure wouldn't. If a fan is paying 79 bucks for MLB.TV or 119 bucks for MLB Extra Innings to go watch this same group of guys next year, it would be a ripoff to see this year's players next year. At least, the kids will bring energy. The current guys put fans to sleep.

[Durango53]

Ya and then in 10 years we might see a winner again...

At least this team going into next year stands a chance.

[Timberwolf]

The 10 year wait period is way off. They may not win it all next year or in the next two years, but there is no reason to think this team could contend for a playoff and World Series in 2008. You can make a strong case that the kids can win us more games than Cuddyer, Punto, Lecroy, and the rest of the stiffs here next year. I just watched another inept performance from this team. Great pitching yet lousy hitting. Majority of our hitters should not even be in the majors especially Lecroy and Cuddyer.
Those kids can provide spark and dynamic hitting. To say that they are not ready is an excuse for them to fail.

Next year, we have a chance? What chance? She-ca-go is going to be very good. Same for Cleveland. Once Detroit finds a legitimate manager, they will be good. KC will be a lot better next year. At least, they have the pitching and hitting. Twins may have the pitching and defense, but it would mean nothing if they lose 1-0 or 2-1. Great pitching and defense sure didn't help us in the She-ca-go series this weekend, did it. Heck this great pitching and defense could still make the Twins have a losing season. They are struggling to finish .500 for Pete's sake. Great pitching and defense can only give you 5 bucks of coffee. I personally think this team will be in last place next year.

I for one want to see an exciting team next season and for that to happen, bring the kids here. To me, it's not about going to the playoffs next season. I can care less if they don't make the playoffs or win next year. Heck they can go break the record for most losses in a year next year. I want to see a whole new team next year. I am tired of watching the same guys do nothing again. I want to rebuild and see the kids show their stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to see Denard Span be that legit base-stealer? Heck we could use Span in today's game against She-ca-go where he could have stole three bases and we could have won today. Denard does the little things out there and what's best he does it everyday unlike Nick Punto, who is great 1 day out of 9 days.

While I am it, bring Chris Clouser back. Clouser's leadership is why the Twins became a legitimate team again.

[Timberwolf]

I got this crazy idea. Delmon Young wants out of Tampa Bay because he is upset the Rays will not call him up this year and maybe next year. So here's what I am thinking. Twins should trade Torii Hunter, Justin Morneau (he can go as far as I am concerned), and Lew Ford for Carl Crawford, Delmon Young, and B.J. Upton (he wants out of TB). Those three guys can help this team short-term and long-term. Hell they could go to the playoffs just for making that trade. Delmon Young is so much better than Morneau. Twins got two base-stealers in Crawford and Upton.

Twins would be crazy not to do this. This would be great for Tampa Bay. Lew is a solid player. Morneau can still be a good hitter elsewhere. Torii Hunter is Torii Hunter.

Win-win situation. Twins get better and I get to see new faces.

[Durango53]

If Justin can be a good hitter why not be that for the Twins.


Learning curve. Pitchers learned to pitch him and now it is his turn to adjust to them.

[LesPaul]

Yeah the kidsfrom A ball are going to struggle, but can they be worse than the garbage we saw this year. Do we and the fans who pay their hard-earned money want to see this same ol' garbage watching Castro, Lecroy, Cuddyer, Punto, and other players who can't play? Do we? I sure wouldn't. If a fan is paying 79 bucks for MLB.TV or 119 bucks for MLB Extra Innings to go watch this same group of guys next year, it would be a ripoff to see this year's players next year. At least, the kids will bring energy. The current guys put fans to sleep.

Trust me on this Timberwolf, you would not want to pay your money to follow every game if an MLB team went solely to its A players...

Then we would get to hear the same song and dance all over that the Twins should dump them all because they aren't playing at World Series caliber...

I have never been through the system but I think its reasonable to assume that a magic switch does not get flipped somewhere that thus enables an A player to be able to perform at the MLB level.

You are down on Bartlett and Cuddyer...where do you think they came from? Thus why we would hear the same thing all over if your ways of running the Twins was ever implemented.

[>TC<]

TW - Where do you get this stuff???? I swear to ___ that you throw stuff out there just to see if anyone will believe it.

Clouser did nothing - period. He wanted to fire Ryan and Gardenhire and the team fired him instead. He didn't get to implement one thing he wanted to do with team operations (and thank goodness for that!). He was a marketing guy who got fired when he decided he wanted to "run the team".

As far as the Twins minor leaguers go - have you even looked at how they performed this year? They would be crushed at the major league level. You think Morneau struggled - that would be nothing compared to these guys. Morneau hit .350 at AAA and you say he should be run out of town because he can't play in the majors.

Both Moses and Span were called up to AA during the season
Moses
186 ab - .210 - 6 - 30 - 3 > 51 K/14 BB
Span
267 ab - .285 - 0 - 26 - 10 > 41 K/22 BB

Plouffe at Class A
466 ab - .223 - 13 - 60 - 8 > 78 K/50 BB - 35 errors in the field

You think the Twins have trouble scoring runs now?


TW - The fact is, I don't believe you when you say that you wouldn't care how the team did next year and the next ( and I doubt if anyone else here does either). If the team lost 100 games, you'd be calling for the heads of every coach and everyone in the front office, and just for a bonus, you'd want every player replaced. Heck, this team is competative and you gripe endlessly every day of the week. They'd need more bandwith here at addicts to handle the load if the Twins lost 100 games.

I got this crazy idea.

That's what it is. TB isn't going to trade three of the best young players in baseball for the three players you mentioned. For one, TB is in a low payroll mode and there is no way they take on Torii's $22 million. Two, the players they'd be giving up are better than what they'd get back. Add Loriano and Baker to the deal from our side and they might do it. Besides, Young is a minor leaguer, since when do teams care if they gripe about wanting out?


This team played, and lost, more one run games than any team in baseball. Add two legit, professional hitters to this lineup and the Twins are right in the mix for 2006. Increase our run production by 1.5 runs a game we win 93 games. That's a fact.



TC

[Durango53]

How many young players have a rough go of it and then get it together later. Man what if the teams gave up on Randy Johnson because he couldnt hit the broad side of a barn from the inside when he first came up. Should he have been cut and forgot about? How many stars of today had a rough first year?

Joe had a rough first year and you thought he was done but I think he had a fairly good year this year and did everything you thought he wouldnt do. Why give up on young players and replace them with younger guys? Justin will be fine and as I said I dont think he is still full strenth because of the way the season started for him. Rested he got fired up and was hitting but then wore out quick. A off season and getting in shape should get him back to where he should be.

So they have young players and you want to give younger players time and give them a couple of years. So why not give these guys a couple of years? It is the same thing but you are just cutting a year off of them.

[Timberwolf]

Mark: Well I was reading about Delmon Young being unhappy and B.J. Upton being unhappy in my newspaper yesterday and I just started thinking about it all night long last night . I was coming up with some of the guys who the Twins can offer. I feel what the Twins can offer would be more than a good deal. Tampa Bay is likely going to be under new ownership next year so that new guy may want to spend money and get those guys. Torii Hunter would be a guy that the Rays can build around as the new Devil Rays. I like Hunter changing the Rays to Carlos Lee changing the Brewers into winners. There is no way the Twins should trade Liriano and Baker, but if they want to trade Joe Nathan in this deal that I am proposing, I would be for it. I doubt Nathan will be here with the money he is going to make in a few years. You can always pencil Travis Bowyer as the closer. There is no point paying Joe Nathan that much money if he is not going to be used much as you saw in the second half. Delmon Young has a point about going to the majors. The guy is already ready and he is killing everyone in the minors. Don't you think the Twins can use a guy like that right now?

You keep saying that the Twins will add two professional hitters out there. I don't see it happening. You think Carl Pohlad will actually do it? I don't. Odds are Carl probably feel that it's time to start all over again and dump guys. Lavelle was citing that in the Strib on Friday about a potential fire sale starting with Torii.

I wouldn't be upset if the Twins were rebuilding. I would understand that they are not ready to contend. Heck I won't be upset if the Vikings were not in the SB or the NFC Championship Game because I know they weren't good enough to match up with the elites in the NFC especially with Tice on the sidelines. I won't be upset if the Wild are a bad team this season because I know they are going with the kids and rightfully so. I won't be upset if the Timberwolves don't make the playoffs because I know the other teams in the Western Conference are so much better than the Wolves and as good as Dwane Casey is going to be as head coach, he would be hard-pressed to get the most out of stiffs like Hudson, Olowokandi, and Wally Sczerbiak (one of the most overpaid players in the NBA). It's one thing to be upset at a team that was expected to win it all, but it's another to be upset knowing full well that a team is not very good. If the Twins was struggling badly knowing full well that they would be bad, I wouldn't be upset. I am being honest and I will prove it to you if the team has that fire sale. I would actually have fun watching the kids play and grow. Baseball would be fun to watch knowing that it would be fun to see the kids play.

Here's my problem with Justin. He has been called out by Torii, Gardy, and Carlos Silva about his work ethic. It just seems Justin is so content to be a mediocre player. He is a lot better than he is capable of. I can't help but start thinking Luis Rivas when I think of Justin.

Look I know the kids will struggle. That's fine. As long as they work hard and play hard, I will be happy. I just don't think they can be worse.

Did you read Jim Souhan's piece on the Twins in today's paper? He basically said what I have to say about this team all season. Apparently, he proved my point and this guy is a homer when it comes to the Twins. When he is ripping them, then you know it's bad. He also ripped them for their attitude (approach) for this month and he is right on. It's stuff like this that wants me to have a fire sale. I don't want those same guys next year if they are not willing to play hard when the season is out of line.

BTW, it was Clouser who wanted to fired TK not Gardy. Gardy was TK's third base coach att het ime. Actually that idea was hailed by a lot of people at the time. People were tired of the losing and TK's non-stop griping with the youngesters especially with Todd Walker.

Shad: Joe Mauer was solid in his first year. Thing is that everyone was worried that he was injury-prone. Looks like he has shed that for now. As for the young players, guys like Lecroy, Cuddyer, and others have had chances to perform for the last two years, but nothing has worked for them. As for Justin's health, I think this is nothing more than a excuse. Is it too much for Justin to get a base hit once in a while? I did not expect him to hit 45 HRs, but I did not expect him to hit like Lecroy. I think Morneau needs to get his confidence back and for that to happen, he needs to play in the winter leagues. As for these current guys, I just don't think they are good. Moses and Span are going to be good I hope.

Ryan: Read what I said to Mark about the young kids. It's one thing to expect the kids to do well, but it's another to expect Single A players to do well in the majors. Morneau was supposed to be Mickey Mantle, but I doubt it will ever happen. If Span and Moses stink next year, that's fine. I just want them there. They can relax knowing full well there are no expectations. As for why I am down on Cuddyer, he has had three years to prove that he can play, but he has been awful. It would be nice to have that magic switch to make everyone look good though.

[Durango53]

LeCroy isnt getting a chance to hit full time. When he has he has done good for the few times. He is hitting .261 with 15 HR in 272 AB's
Mark Teixeira has 40 HR in 600 AB's. LeCroy hasnt had that many AB's ever. But stats say he could do that if he got the 600 AB's. You cant sit the bench 70% of the time and come out and hit the ball over the fence all the time. You got to see live pitching and live game pitching.

Cuddyer had a ton of pressure. One year I played with a new team. I was trying so hard that it was the worst year of hitting I ever had. The next year I just played and it was the best year I ever had. To give up on a player that is getting his first full chance I feel isnt the best thing. To go to a backup fill in to a starter is a total diffenent mind set and this is the first year Mike had to do that.

And I still dont get where everyone thought where Joe Mauer was injury prone. It was the first time ever he was hurt and it took him some time to come back. If it happened again this year I might talk about it some but injury prone means there is a history of being hurt.

No way I play Justin in winter league. He needs the time off. I am a guy that is on the go all the time. I am playing sports still all the time. I lift everyday and just life keeps me going all the time. I have never played a 163 game season but I got hurt early this spring and it took me about 2 months to get over it to where I could play sports again 100% but I was never full strenth because I never got the time off to rest. So excuse or not it is reality.

[>TC<]

Here's the deal - it's great to be able to voice your opinion, but have you ever heard of "beating a dead horse" - we've all heard it over and over and over and over, in multiple threads. Move on.

Thank goodness that you and these other over-reactive fans and writers aren't in charge. Gripe all you want, but the Twins organizational philosophy isn't going to change.

Here is what you'll see:
*The Twins will change over 5-7 players and return the rest.
*The team will free up $12-15 million losing Jones, Mays, and maybe Lohse.
*The kids aren't going to come up until they are ready.
*The Twins will try to bring in a Joe Randa/Bill Mueller type to play 3B. Someone like Kevin Millar or BJ Surhoff could be brought in if they can't get one of these two.
*Morneau will be back with expectations that he'll improve on 20 hr and 75 rbi - even if he doesn't, those stats would be ok if he was batting 7th. Heck, Morneau is only 24 years old - way to young to give up on. (Using your model, we'd have dumped Torii Hunter before he ever became an impact player. He took a long time to develop.)
*Torii will be back - Ryan stepped up immediately to refute any rumors of Hunter being moved.


There are some players on this team who shouldn't, and won't be back. Ryan and Gardenhire both have talked openly about that. The core will return.


TC