A Look at the Post-Fire Sale Marlins

[Jennifer]

Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria spent much of the off-season banging his spoon on a high chair because the taxpayers of Miami-Dade County wouldn't buy him a place to do business. So he set about dismantling a team that only three seasons ago felled the Yankees in the World Series.

It's a tasteless, punitive gesture, and it demonstrates the sense of entitlement common to baseball owners in the Bud Selig era. But it's how things are done these days. On the field, the Marlins will bear scant resemblance to the 83-win club from a year ago. Every high-salary veteran that wasn't nailed down has been shipped off to points north and west.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5261804

[Timberwolf]

Can you blame Loria for the fire sale? No one goes to the games. He is not making money. It's pretty simple. Loria has done his best to field good teams in Florida including keeping his best players, but still South Floridians never embraced that team. You can only do so much. I am opposed to fire sales or moving the team, but it's not hard to make when fans don't care about baseball in Florida.

South Florida is a lousy sports town period. Hurricanes don't draw. Panthers don't draw. The Heat don't draw. Dolphins had hard time selling out playoff games. The only time they draw well when NY sports teams come to town and that's because most fans are transisent New Yorkers.

[Jennifer]

Can you blame Loria for the fire sale? No one goes to the games. He is not making money. It's pretty simple. Loria has done his best to field good teams in Florida including keeping his best players, but still South Floridians never embraced that team. You can only do so much. I am opposed to fire sales or moving the team, but it's not hard to make when fans don't care about baseball in Florida.

South Florida is a lousy sports town period. Hurricanes don't draw. Panthers don't draw. The Heat don't draw. Dolphins had hard time selling out playoff games. The only time they draw well when NY sports teams come to town and that's because most fans are transisent New Yorkers.Yes I can blame him. He failed with the Expos and he failed with the Marlins. He was not making money? Fine he could have sold the team instead of gutting it. He would have gotten in a sale more than he paid because there are always people out there who are willing to overpay.

[Timberwolf]

You can't blame him, Jennifer. Jeff Loria fielded a very good team since owning the Marlins. The Marlins won a WS championship under Loria. All Loria has done is sign free agents, acquire players for the pennant race, and kept his core players. Still the great people at South Florida never showed up regardless of Loria's efforts. Loria was not making money so he had no choice but to cut his losses. You can't blame him for that. Any owner would do the same thing if his or her team was not drawing well. You can't fault him. He did his job, but the fans didn't. There was a reason why John Henry threw his hands up and begged somone to buy his team so he can own the Red Sox.

Why should he sell the team? I think he wants to move the team where he can make money. South Florida is clearly not the place. I think he can be a good owner, but fans have to do their part. If he moves this team to Portland, Charlotte, or New Jersey, he would make a lot of money. He can field a good team. He showed you that in Florida. I think if he fields a good team in a different market, it might be different.

The Expos situation is sort of understandable. Montreal was not going to give him a new stadium and the fans in Montreal clearly got fed up with the Expos since the unforgivable 1995 strike. They were done with baseball after that strike. Expos drew well in the 80s and 90s. It got ugly after the strike. He was in a no-win situation.

Which owner would buy a baseball team? Carl Pohlad tried selling the Twins to no avail. No buyer from Minnesota had any interest so he kept the team. It's easiser said than done.

I am not going to blame Jeff and I am sure not going to blame Carl for the Twins problems. Owners can only do so much. It comes down to the public. If fans don't want to come to the games or if the state don't want to offer a stadium bill in which the owner was willing to pay portion of his money in Carl Pohlad, don't blame the owners.

[Jennifer]

You can't blame him, Jennifer. Jeff Loria fielded a very good team since owning the Marlins. The Marlins won a WS championship under Loria. All Loria has done is sign free agents, acquire players for the pennant race, and kept his core players. Still the great people at South Florida never showed up regardless of Loria's efforts. Loria was not making money so he had no choice but to cut his losses. You can't blame him for that. Any owner would do the same thing if his or her team was not drawing well. You can't fault him. He did his job, but the fans didn't. There was a reason why John Henry threw his hands up and begged somone to buy his team so he can own the Red Sox.

Why should he sell the team? I think he wants to move the team where he can make money. South Florida is clearly not the place. I think he can be a good owner, but fans have to do their part. If he moves this team to Portland, Charlotte, or New Jersey, he would make a lot of money. He can field a good team. He showed you that in Florida. I think if he fields a good team in a different market, it might be different.

The Expos situation is sort of understandable. Montreal was not going to give him a new stadium and the fans in Montreal clearly got fed up with the Expos since the unforgivable 1995 strike. They were done with baseball after that strike. Expos drew well in the 80s and 90s. It got ugly after the strike. He was in a no-win situation.

Which owner would buy a baseball team? Carl Pohlad tried selling the Twins to no avail. No buyer from Minnesota had any interest so he kept the team. It's easiser said than done.

I am not going to blame Jeff and I am sure not going to blame Carl for the Twins problems. Owners can only do so much. It comes down to the public. If fans don't want to come to the games or if the state don't want to offer a stadium bill in which the owner was willing to pay portion of his money in Carl Pohlad, don't blame the owners.Correct me if I am wrong but was not a condition of any sale by Pohlad that the Twins would not be moved? And to ensure that was he not unwilling to sell to anyone but a local group? Limiting a sale to only Minnesota groups places an enormous limitation on the number of potential buyers. There are plenty of wealthy ego maniacs around the country who would love a MLB play toy. (so young, so beautiful but so cynical:)

As for Loria you overlook (or at least failed to mention) that many of his actions are driven by his ego mania. Of course he wants to make money but he wants to be a MLB owner at least as much. When he took over the team he knew that Miami was a bad market.

And what makes you think that the cities you mention are big enough markets to support a MLB team in the long-run? Consider Phoenix which is I believe is a much larger market than any of the cities you mentioned. A new stadium and then a winning team initially drew big crowds. Now some are wondering whether the market is big enough to support a team. But hey after taxpayers pay for a new stadium and fans fall in love with their team if attendance is not good enough well let's just move the team.

I don't necessarily oppose moving teams that have poor attendance but not until the pool of potential buyers is extinquished.

[Timberwolf]

You are going to have to ask TC (he posts at the Twins board) about whether there is a condition of any sale in which the Twins can not be moved, Jennifer. To my knowledge, I don't think there is a condition. I know Reggie Jackson wants to buy the Twins with the idea of them moving to Las Vegas if the stadium proposal does not happen (it won't since it expired on December 31st), but Pohlad said the team is not for sale for now. Again, ask TC. He will give you a great answer since he has an inside track of the Twins as he lives in Minnesota.

I don't think Carl Pohlad will ever sell it the team to a buyer outside of Minnesota. Then everyone in Minnesota will be so paranoid about the team moving. Minnesotans don't react well with outside buyers. Vikings were owned by that idiot, Billy Joe McCombs from 1998 to last year. This guy did not have the intention of wanting to stay in Minnesota. He had ideas about either getting a new stadium or he would move the Vikings to San Antonio, where he resides. Fans did not like the fact that he is from Texas. When Reggie Fowler wanted to buy the team, Minnesotans did not favor him either and the Star-Tribune and Pioneer Press made sure that he never got the team since they wrote nasty articles about him. Fowler is an outsider. Zygi Wilf now owns the Vikings. Wilf hails from Short Hills, New Jersey and you got several Vikings fans and the media being cynical about him too. Vikings fans and the Twin Cities media wanted Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor to buy the Vikings. The negative attitude towards outside buyers began with Norm Green, who used to own the NHL's Minnesota North Stars. He wanted a new arena, but he wasn't going to get one and then out of the blue, he moved the North Stars to Dallas. I don't fault Norm BTW. The state failed to give him a new arena just like how the state has failed to give Carl Pohlad a new stadium never mind Carl was going to pay a good portion of it. Oh and I am glad Taylor does not own the Vikings because Taylor has done a lousy job owning the Timberwolves to the point I wish Taylor sold the team.

I would like to own the Twins or the Timberwolves, (I prefer the Wolves), but I don't have the money. I am sure some people would be happy that I don't own any MN sports teams especially TC because I make irrational decisions. :)

Loria wanted to own the Marlins simply because he felt that he could have made a difference in what was an apathetic market. He tried his best. You can fault him for knowing that Miami is a bad market, but I think he wanted to go make a difference. Some owners have an ability to make a difference in a market. Mark Cuban is a great example, but then again Dallas/Fort Worth is a great sports town so once the Mavs started winning, fans would respond. Still Cuban played a big role in changing the culture of the Mavericks. San Diego was a lousy baseball town till John Moores, who owns the Padres, changed the mindset and the culture. Now San Diego draws well. Milwaukee used to be apathetic to baseball, but then new owner Mark Anatassio changed the mindset of the franchise last year. Brewers are starting to draw well. It could be done. Loria tried in Miami. Too bad fans did not like baseball.

There are some cities that are on the rise. I think San Antonio is ready to support a baseball team. I think Charlotte is a great sports town. I think Portland would support a team well. There are some cities out there. The bottom line is that if a team wins, people will come for the most part. Phoenix is a great sports town, but the teams gotta win too for fans to show up. There is a reason why attendance at the BOB is horrible. The team stinks and the product itself stinks. I recalled the Mets playing the D-Backs late in August or September and most of the fans were Mets fans or fans disguised as green seats then.

There is a difference between Phoenix and Miami here. Phoenix will support their teams when they are winning. Miami don't.

[Jennifer]

Loria wanted to own the Marlins simply because he felt that he could have made a difference in what was an apathetic market. He tried his best. You can fault him for knowing that Miami is a bad market, but I think he wanted to go make a difference. Some owners have an ability to make a difference in a market. Mark Cuban is a great example, but then again Dallas/Fort Worth is a great sports town so once the Mavs started winning, fans would respond. Still Cuban played a big role in changing the culture of the Mavericks. San Diego was a lousy baseball town till John Moores, who owns the Padres, changed the mindset and the culture. Now San Diego draws well. Milwaukee used to be apathetic to baseball, but then new owner Mark Anatassio changed the mindset of the franchise last year. Brewers are starting to draw well. It could be done. Loria tried in Miami. Too bad fans did not like baseball.

There are some cities that are on the rise. I think San Antonio is ready to support a baseball team. I think Charlotte is a great sports town. I think Portland would support a team well. There are some cities out there. The bottom line is that if a team wins, people will come for the most part. Phoenix is a great sports town, but the teams gotta win too for fans to show up. There is a reason why attendance at the BOB is horrible. The team stinks and the product itself stinks. I recalled the Mets playing the D-Backs late in August or September and most of the fans were Mets fans or fans disguised as green seats then.

There is a difference between Phoenix and Miami here. Phoenix will support their teams when they are winning. Miami don't.Mark Cuban is an excellent example of the type of owner I was talking about. The difference between him and Loria is that Cuban succeded where Loria has failed twice.

As for a team having to win for good attendance what do you mean? Championships or competitiveness?

In 1999 the D-Backs won 100 games but attendance fell from 3.0 million to 2.8 million despite the team winning 85 games. In 2003 after winning the WS in 2001 and the Divison in 2002 attendance dropped from 3.2 million in 2002 to 2.8 million even though the team won 84 games. 2004 attendance was 2.5 million and 2005 was 2.1 million. Admittedly the teams have not been good the last two years. But the badness of the teams are not unrelated to revenues -- particularly attendance and local media revenues.

Phoenix Suns with as good a team as it has had in recent years has averaged over the last five seasons has averaged less than 17,000 per game.

Charlotte has lost an NBA team because of poor attendance.

The Portland Trailblazers are 29th in attendance this and were 20th last year.

The San Antonio Spurs a few years ago were averaging 20,000 fans per game.. This season after winning an NBA championship they are averaging 18,797 and are seventh in the league. Last season after having lost in the finals the previous season the team finished ninth in attendance with average attendance of 18,316. What happens to attendance when the team puts together a couple of seasons in a row of 2 or 3 games over .500?

[Baseball Guru]

Can you blame Loria for the fire sale? No one goes to the games. He is not making money. It's pretty simple. Loria has done his best to field good teams in Florida including keeping his best players, but still South Floridians never embraced that team. You can only do so much. I am opposed to fire sales or moving the team, but it's not hard to make when fans don't care about baseball in Florida.

South Florida is a lousy sports town period. Hurricanes don't draw. Panthers don't draw. The Heat don't draw. Dolphins had hard time selling out playoff games. The only time they draw well when NY sports teams come to town and that's because most fans are transisent New Yorkers.


I agree here... I live in Florida and see the things going on 1st hand.. I go to a few Marlins game a year and went to the playoff games a few years ago and trust me, the only time they draw fans is during the playoffs...

With the Marlins only a game and a half out of the playoff hunt as late as Sept 17th, during a beautiful, sunny, 96 degree weather, day vs the Phillies, one of the 2 teams ahead of them, they were only able to draw 27,000 fans... And trhat was with the D-Train pitching..
The next day, an 86 degree day, with Josh Becket pitching, on a Sunday afternoon, they only draw a little over 25,000 fans....

Those #'s stink when talking about a team, in late September, battling for a playoff spot....

Do I want the Marlins to move? No, certainly not but I can understand why he wants to move.. As far as gutting the team, I can understand that as well.. Why would an owner, lets face it, they are out to make money, not lose it, keep his payroll high and try to build a winner, if no one is going to the games.. He made a commitment to winning, even after they won the WS, and no one in Miami appreciated it or came out to support the team.. What loyalty does he have towards the fans if the fans show no loyalty back?

JMO:)

[Jennifer]

I agree here... I live in Florida and see the things going on 1st hand.. I go to a few Marlins game a year and went to the playoff games a few years ago and trust me, the only time they draw fans is during the playoffs...

With the Marlins only a game and a half out of the playoff hunt as late as Sept 17th, during a beautiful, sunny, 96 degree weather, day vs the Phillies, one of the 2 teams ahead of them, they were only able to draw 27,000 fans... And trhat was with the D-Train pitching..
The next day, an 86 degree day, with Josh Becket pitching, on a Sunday afternoon, they only draw a little over 25,000 fans....

Those #'s stink when talking about a team, in late September, battling for a playoff spot....

Do I want the Marlins to move? No, certainly not but I can understand why he wants to move.. As far as gutting the team, I can understand that as well.. Why would an owner, lets face it, they are out to make money, not lose it, keep his payroll high and try to build a winner, if no one is going to the games.. He made a commitment to winning, even after they won the WS, and no one in Miami appreciated it or came out to support the team.. What loyalty does he have towards the fans if the fans show no loyalty back?

JMO:)Let me start with saying that I'm not a defender of Marlins attendance record -- it is poor.

When did Loria first start threatening to move the team and don't you think that has had a negative effect on attendance.

How serious did the fans think Loria was in building a contender? 2005 team payroll was $60.4 million -- 19th in the MLB. And this was considerably up from 2002 ($35.6 million), 2003 ($42 million), 2004 ($42.1) million. Increases in payroll don't usually translate into increased attendance until the fans see improved play on the field.

As for the Phillies series there is more to the story than you offered. Going into the series the Marlins were 3 1/2 games behind the Giants for a playoff spot quite a few games to make up with a little over two weeks to go in the season. Moreover, while I didn't check I believe that their were other teams ahead of the Marlins so they had to play better than a few teams. Still on September 16th in the opener against the Phillies they drew 30,853 not a bad Friday night crowd. They were trounced 13-3 and fell 4 1/2 games behind the Giants. On the 17th, as you noted, they drew 27,703 the drop from the night before almost certainly due to fewer tickets sold on game day. Again they were trounced 10-2 remaining 4 1/2 back of the Giants. On the 18th they fell to 25,208 not at all surprising at this point particularly considering it was an NFL Sunday.

But the major difference between myself and you and Timberwolf is that I believe that before a team is moved that buyers should be sought and the team sold if the incumbent owner can make a profit. Yes I know MLB is a business but it is not a typical business. Ownership is as much about ego for many owners as it is about money and if they can have both they are in heaven. And yes I think fans should be considered. MLB in placing a franchise in Miami had some reasonable doubts that the market would support a team but as a new franchise the Marlins paid big bucks to all the other teams to obtain the franchise. Consequently, I do believe that MLB entered into a moral compact with the people of the Miami area to keep the team there if at all possible.

[Jennifer]

BTW - I started this thread to discuss the effects of the fire-sale and not as a referendum on Loria.:sigh: The quote was only meant as a teaser so people would read the rest of the article.

[Baseball Guru]

As for the Phillies series there is more to the story than you offered. Going into the series the Marlins were 3 1/2 games behind the Giants for a playoff spot quite a few games to make up with a little over two weeks to go in the season. Moreover, while I didn't check I believe that their were other teams ahead of the Marlins so they had to play better than a few teams. Still on September 16th in the opener against the Phillies they drew 30,853 not a bad Friday night crowd. They were trounced 13-3 and fell 4 1/2 games behind the Giants. On the 17th, as you noted, they drew 27,703 the drop from the night before almost certainly due to fewer tickets sold on game day. Again they were trounced 10-2 remaining 4 1/2 back of the Giants.

I'm not sure where you are getting the Giants from as they weren't even in the Wild Card hunt last year... At the start of that series vs the Phils, they were tied with Philly, and only 1/2 game behind the Astros for the Wild Card...

[Jennifer]

I'm not sure where you are getting the Giants from as they weren't even in the Wild Card hunt last year... At the start of that series vs the Phils, they were tied with Philly, and only 1/2 game behind the Astros for the Wild Card...This is so embarassing. I got it from the Florida Marlins News site but in going back and checking I realized that when you click on the "2005" link it gives you "2004" and I did not realize it.

[Baseball Guru]

heehee;)

I gotcha:D