The Captains

[Trots]

There's been a great deal of talk around Detroit about where Steve Yzerman ranks amongst the all-time greats? The consensus seems to be that he should be in the top ten all-time, but over just the last twenty-five years or so, Yzerman might rank as high as third. The list was 1) Gretzky, 2) Lemieux then 3) Yzerman or Messier. I was wondering what many of you thought?

In addition, the "other" captain in the finals, Ron Francis is also an all-time great and I am curious where you might rank him on the list? Francis often gets overlooked, but he's fifth all-time in scoring and second all-time in assists. I've always liked the guy, but his numbers are really impressive and shocking considering he has to be the least publicized player ever in the NHL.

[Baseball Guru]

Me personally, I love #11, captain of the NY Rangers, Mark Messier...

Ok I am biased a bit since he is my favorite player of alltime:biggrin:

Messier did something no other Ranger captain did and that was not only guarantee victory but also provide it to Cup starved Ranger fans.....

That list looks pretty fair though...

[I Are Baboon]

I think Yzerman falls somewhere in the top ten, but closer to #10 than #1. I think Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, and Patrick Roy should rank higher. Ron Francis belongs in the top 20. Just because he has all those points does not mean he's one of the 10 best all-time players.

[GiveHyzduashot]

IAB, if you don't rank a player based on his career points, how else do you rank him? Leadership? Ronnie Franchise has it. Class? He has as much as any other player in the game, if not more. Dedication? He has that, too. You said he shouldn't be in the top ten because of points alone, but I don't know what other credentials one needs to have to be in the top ten that Ronnie Francis doesn't have.

My list would be: 1) Lemieux 2) Gretzky 3) Yzerman 4) Francis 5) Messier.

I put Lemieux over Gretzky because Lemieux's probably my secodn favorite player behind Francis, Lemieux has averaged more PPG than anyone else in the game, and Lemieux's overcome a lot more adversity than Gretzky.

As for Francis over Messier, the players are pretty much even. The edge for Francis is he's my favorite player and also extremely, extremely underrated.

[imgreat95]

I think I have to pretty much agree with Josh's list.


Lemieux, aside from being my favorite player, I believe was a much better player than Gretzky. Had he stayed healthy, he would have easily surpassed Gretzky's numbers.


I, too, think that Francis definitely belongs in the top 5. Not only has he scored as many points as he has, but he has also helped his teams to 3 Stanley Cup Finals... winning two of them so far. The third one, remains to be seen.

I think that a top 10 of all-time might look like this:

1. Mario Lemieux
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Gordie Howe
4. Steve Yzerman
5. Ron Francis
6. Mark Messier
7. Marcel Dionne
8. Paul Coffey
9. Ray Borque
10. Bryan Trottier

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by GiveHyzduashot
IAB, if you don't rank a player based on his career points, how else do you rank him?

Great players don't have to be forwards, and forwards naturally top the all-time scoring list. I think Bobby Orr and Patrick Roy were better at their positions (just to name a couple) than Ron Francis is at his.

I am not taking anything away from Ron Francis. I am a big Ron Francis fan. I just happen to put some other people in front of him on my all-time list.

For the record, Mario Lemieux is #1 on my list.

[imgreat95]

i could see you leaving Francis out of the top 5.... but I think that saying he is only a top 20 player is not quite fair to him. After all, he is the #5 scorer of all time.... He has also won the Lady Byng Memorial Trophy on two different occasions. (sportsmanship + ability) and has won the Frank Selke Trophy as the best defensive forward. Those are just some reasons why I would put him in the top 5.

[GiveHyzduashot]

I think Bobby Orr and Patrick Roy were better at their positions (just to name a couple) than Ron Francis is at his.

I don't think that's really an accurate statement.

You're comparing the best goaltender in the history of the game and the best defenseman in the history of the game to a forward who probably is closer to the fifth best forward than the best forward.

That's like saying Walter Johnson is better than Roberto Clemente. It's true, but in a way it's wrong. It's really not a fair comparison.

[I Are Baboon]

Well, are we discussing the greatest players of all time, the greatest forwards of all time, or the greatest captains of all time? If we are discussing the greatest players, then you need to look at every position.

Look at the list of top 50 NBA players. You've got centers, guards, and forwards in there. If you compile a similar list of NHL players, you've got to include everyone.

[imgreat95]

I think that in Hockey when compiling a list like this, you have to seperate the goaltenders from the forwards/defensemen. That is why I didn't include any of them in my list.

[Trots]

I'm not sure who I think the all-time greatest is. My top five are Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux and Richard. Any of them could be the best ever imo.

As much as I like Francis, I think he's more a top twenty player than top ten. Toss out the older players (Richard, Howe, etc...) and/or the netminders and Francis probably makes my top ten.

[Baseball Guru]

Damn Penguin fans:hmm: ;) :biggrin:

Go Mess!!!!!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[GiveHyzduashot]

Those damn blind, fairweathered New York fans. What good are they anyway? :biggrin:

[Baseball Guru]

:eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu :eviltongu